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Is Brian Cowen Democratic?


berberie

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Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Yes Brian has the law on his side, he is 'legally' entitled to lead this country until July,2012. However is he morally and democratically justified in this position as most opinion polls show a large swing for oposition parties? Within a democracy should the leader not have to listen to voters opinions?

As it were, BC was not elected as Taoiseach (God love the poor sheep in this country, they voted for a horse gambling, cupboard sitting man without a bank a/c (one has to wonder if his crystal ball told him what would happen to those banks)) ;). Rather he took office as the MoF, ie a Dept that should have been working towards keeping our finances in order rather than destroying them!

Gordon Brown in Britain had the decency to hold his hands up and call a GE as that was what his people wanted. Our government appears to be fast enough at giving us a second chance to 'get a referendum right' to suit the EU ie anyone remember the Nice and Lisbon treaties?? How about the government listens to it's own people for once?
 


Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
22,910
Nobody votes for a Taoiseach in Ireland aside from 165 members of Dail Eireann or did you not realise that ?

You want Govt by opinion poll do you ?
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Nobody votes for a Taoiseach in Ireland aside from 165 members of Dail Eireann or did you not realise that ?

You want Govt by opinion poll do you ?
Yes I do realise that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't vote for the position of Taoiseach, but the FF party was voted in under different leadership! Who's to say how people would have voted if BC had been leader of the party at the time, hence my comparrison to Britain and Tony Blair/Gordon Brown.

And does a series of opinion polls (all pretty much with the same results) not show how the country is feeling about our government and therefore should the people not have the right to voice those opinions officially ie by voting?
 

Pauli

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Sep 22, 2006
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1,181
Yes I do realise that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't vote for the position of Taoiseach, but the FF party was voted in under different leadership! Who's to say how people would have voted if BC had been leader of the party at the time, hence my comparrison to Britain and Tony Blair/Gordon Brown.

And does a series of opinion polls (all pretty much with the same results) not show how the country is feeling about our government and therefore should the people not have the right to voice those opinions officially ie by voting?

FF is not a democratic organisation. BTW, can you name a mafia that is democratic? I can't think of any.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
22,910
Yes I do realise that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't vote for the position of Taoiseach, but the FF party was voted in under different leadership! Who's to say how people would have voted if BC had been leader of the party at the time, hence my comparrison to Britain and Tony Blair/Gordon Brown.

And does a series of opinion polls (all pretty much with the same results) not show how the country is feeling about our government and therefore should the people not have the right to voice those opinions officially ie by voting?
Your comparison to the UK is horsecrap because UK Govt was time barred and an election legally had to be held.............were you even aware of this ?
 

Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,484
This is not a Democracy. It is an Aristocracy, in which Dail seats are inherited by a generation less competent and more greedy than the generation that went before it. But the adoring peasants love it.
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
FF is not a democratic organisation. BTW, can you name a mafia that is democratic? I can't think of any.
Very good point petunia
 

ulsterscotnua

Active member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
163
Brian Cowan is not democratic.
For fe.. sake he is f.f.
You get what you deserve! How many vote for what a party offers but for candidate that promises what suits you. job ! social security benefit! etc.
 

jackryan

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
3,697
Yes Brian has the law on his side, he is 'legally' entitled to lead this country until July,2012. However is he morally and democratically justified in this position as most opinion polls show a large swing for oposition parties? Within a democracy should the leader not have to listen to voters opinions?

As it were, BC was not elected as Taoiseach (God love the poor sheep in this country, they voted for a horse gambling, cupboard sitting man without a bank a/c (one has to wonder if his crystal ball told him what would happen to those banks)) ;). Rather he took office as the MoF, ie a Dept that should have been working towards keeping our finances in order rather than destroying them!

Gordon Brown in Britain had the decency to hold his hands up and call a GE as that was what his people wanted. Our government appears to be fast enough at giving us a second chance to 'get a referendum right' to suit the EU ie anyone remember the Nice and Lisbon treaties?? How about the government listens to it's own people for once?
So Was John Bruton democratic! And I note Brown waited a while 2 hold his hands up! more or less the last minute!!
 

oggy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
8,958
Yes I do realise that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't vote for the position of Taoiseach, but the FF party was voted in under different leadership! Who's to say how people would have voted if BC had been leader of the party at the time, hence my comparrison to Britain and Tony Blair/Gordon Brown.

And does a series of opinion polls (all pretty much with the same results) not show how the country is feeling about our government and therefore should the people not have the right to voice those opinions officially ie by voting?
Its amusing to see a labour person believing what the polls say. Looking forward to Labour's 100 anniversary with labour Taoiseach and a Labour majority of 20 seats at least ?
 

Mercurial

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Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
88,171
I consider him to be legally but not morally entitled to continue as Taoiseach.
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Its amusing to see a labour person believing what the polls say. Looking forward to Labour's 100 anniversary with labour Taoiseach and a Labour majority of 20 seats at least ?
Oggy funnily enough, if you talk to people on the street at the moment they appear to be echoing the polls, and the original question was not about what 'a Labour person' believes or not. I asked was it democtatic of BC to dig his heels in when it is quite obvious a large % of this country want their chance to have their say!

If you look at 'Leaders questions'how often has BC said 'I'm the Leader' in one form or another, who is he trying to convince, us, those in the house or himself?
 

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,675
Yes Brian has the law on his side, he is 'legally' entitled to lead this country until July,2012. However is he morally and democratically justified in this position as most opinion polls show a large swing for oposition parties? Within a democracy should the leader not have to listen to voters opinions? As it were, BC was not elected as Taoiseach (God love the poor sheep in this country, they voted for a horse gambling, cupboard sitting man without a bank a/c (one has to wonder if his crystal ball told him what would happen to those banks)) ;). Rather he took office as the MoF, ie a Dept that should have been working towards keeping our finances in order rather than destroying them!
I have no time for Cowen or FF but he was elected as Taoiseach by the Dáil, in accordance with our constitution. The government is entitled to remain in office while it has the confidence of the parliament. That is how our system works. If you wish to change it, so that we have elections every time the government faces a negative opinion poll, then campaign for the necessary constitutional amendments.

Gordon Brown in Britain had the decency to hold his hands up and call a GE as that was what his people wanted.
Brown was legally obliged to call a general election by June 2010 at the very latest. He called one for May 2010, not out of decency but out of political calculation. A calculation that almost paid off.

Our government appears to be fast enough at giving us a second chance to 'get a referendum right' to suit the EU ie anyone remember the Nice and Lisbon treaties?? How about the government listens to it's own people for once?
The second referendums on divorce, Nice and Lisbon gave people a chance to change their minds (or not if they preferred) on these issues.

Every time we have a general election we get to change our minds (or not if we prefer) about the politicians and the political parties we gave our votes to at the previous general election.

It's a flawed system but it's a hell of a lot better than having an election every time a new opinion poll comes out.
 

oggy

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Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
8,958
Oggy funnily enough, if you talk to people on the street at the moment they appear to be echoing the polls, and the original question was not about what 'a Labour person' believes or not. I asked was it democtatic of BC to dig his heels in when it is quite obvious a large % of this country want their chance to have their say!

If you look at 'Leaders questions'how often has BC said 'I'm the Leader' in one form or another, who is he trying to convince, us, those in the house or himself?
How many times have FF gone into elections as favs ? How many times have FF gone into government and first poll after election shows them dropping in support ? I should be a Labour supporter but the fantasy world of the Labour Party is just too much for me
 

blinding

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
17,633
FFail are behaving like facists in the way that they are deny voters in 3 constitutuencies there full democratic representation.

They are immoral facists at the very least. I suppose it cannot be a surprise that they are cosying up to the blueshirts. Every bit of blueshirt advice will be put to good use.
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
I have no time for Cowen or FF but he was elected as Taoiseach by the Dáil, in accordance with our constitution. The government is entitled to remain in office while it has the confidence of the parliament. That is how our system works. If you wish to change it, so that we have elections every time the government faces a negative opinion poll, then campaign for the necessary constitutional amendments.



Brown was legally obliged to call a general election by June 2010 at the very latest. He called one for May 2010, not out of decency but out of political calculation. A calculation that almost paid off.



The second referendums on divorce, Nice and Lisbon gave people a chance to change their minds (or not if they preferred) on these issues.

Every time we have a general election we get to change our minds (or not if we prefer) about the politicians and the political parties we gave our votes to at the previous general election.

It's a flawed system but it's a hell of a lot better than having an election every time a new opinion poll comes out.
Sond I am not disagreeing with you on whether BC has the legal right to be there or not. Right at the start I stated that yes he was legally entitled to the position. And this is not about your average negative opinion poll, because this country is not in an 'average' situation. The question is a result of over a year's worth of opinion polls and people's opinion in general whether they have been polled or not.

As for the referenda, if my memory serves correctly, when the Lisbon vote was approaching we were told we would not have to vote a second time, that our word would be our word. Yet a second one was organised very quickly (quickly in terms of how the government moves) and a lot of scaremongering tactics were used on the general population (btw where are all the jobs we were promised if we voted yes?). Also where is the Children's referendum, that has been in the pipline for a number of years yet two on Lisbon can be held in quick succession when personally I must say I find childrens' issues within this country and the protection of same of greater importance.
 

FreshStart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
Cowen is not a democrat. He made us vote on Lisbon twice and is now looking for any legal excuse to prevent the Irish from voting on Lisbon III. He also won't hold three outstanding by-elections because they know they will lose them. Rumours are floating around now about Pat "The Cope" running for his old seat again, Pat "The Cope"'s wife running for the seat and even a goalie, Packie Bonner. Really, it doesn't matter that these people have no quality about them. They're simply rent-a-crowd.

Having listened to O'Ciuv and Mansergh on Vincent Browne the last couple of weeks, I feel FF doesn't give a dam about it's people, it's simply holding onto power for its own sake. In fact, most days I feel FF absolutely hate us. Let's face it, we can't wait for a general election so we can hammer them once and for all. They know this is happening and so are punishing us before we get there. Fianna Fail have destroyed the country. I will never forgive them. I will never forget.
 

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