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Is clientelism a particularly Catholic/Orthodox practice?


FloatingVoterTralee

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The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
 

Analyzer

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The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
Perhaps this might have been true in the 1600s, when Protestant culture in Northern Europe emphasised frugality, self-sufficiency, moral righteousness, hard work, honest effort, etc.

One could argue that the Protestant work ethic has lapsed, and in some cases even wound down to nothing, thanks to the manufacturing of consent.

Salvation coming from the local discount retailer.

Well, the way I look at it the Protestant Work ethic is dying. Just look at the North of Ireland. A solid proportion of the population are more interested in symbolism, Rangers, and welfare freebies than in getting work.
 

irelandmearsedotcom

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It's a practice which is practised wherever clans, families,groups,organisations,friends,churches ,companies,rugby etc are important
 

Verhofstadt

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Have you looked at Indian, Pakistani or Thai politics recently (to take three different religions)

Take off the blinkers.. Catholics are not inherently more corrupt than Prods. Societies are bigger and more complex than that.

Southern Germany & Austria are Catholic in majority and as straight as any Nordic state.
 

Analyzer

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In Ireland, clientelism is exists independent of religious observance. There probably is an element in the traditional catholic population that abhorred it - Ireland's Catholic Puritan element if you could call it that - that expected people to behave like Presbyterian hardliners in respect to work and money.

But that tradition has been successfully pulverised into an insignificant level, to be point of near non-existence.
 
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The largest denomination in Germany is Catholic. Meanwhile the UK, a Protestant country, has not been 'fiscally prudent' any more than Ireland has (and has been saved by being able to float its own currency) and a quick browse of Private Eye any week will tell you all you need to know about corruption and clientilism in British politics.
 

gerhard dengler

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Was the Reformation a religious inspired event?
Or was the Reformation a culturally inspired event?

It’s my understanding that the Reformation was primarily a religious inspired event.
The Reformers were Roman Catholics in origin and training, who as they saw it,
sought to reform Roman Catholicism.

The dictionary tells me that clientelism is a social order which depends on patronage.

Many societies which were greatly influenced by the Reformation still retained political
systems that operated upon patronage.
For example, Germany the centre of the Reformation, had a series of provincial monarchs ruling regions until 1871.
The Netherland political system comprised of regents and viscounts, all part of the House of Orange.

Separately, the 4 economic engines of Europe are predominantly Roman Catholic.
Baden Wurttemburg (Germany), Northern Italy, Catalunya (Spain) are predominantly Roman Catholic regions.
 

The Field Marshal

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More self loathing Irish and in particular anti Catholic threads. What a surprise. Nothing better to do ?


Clientelism happens in many Western Societies. Granted, it is rife in the South

Think American Politicians give a ************************ for the working class who has no prospects of giving donations?
I think your being a little unfair on the OP.

IMV he is starting a discussion about why "catholic" and "protestant" societies differ with regard to clientalism and the abuse of privilidge.

There is no doubt but that traditionaly the work ethic of Northern European mainly protestant countries is higher than the catholic south of Europe.

I blame it on climate more than religion.

However it by no means a cut and dried question.
 

PO'Neill

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The largest denomination in Germany is Catholic. Meanwhile the UK, a Protestant country, has not been 'fiscally prudent' any more than Ireland has (and has been saved by being able to float its own currency) and a quick browse of Private Eye any week will tell you all you need to know about corruption and clientilism in British politics.
Yes the largest denomination in Germany is Catholic, so also with Nederlands. That economic utopia the UK was bankrupt in the mid 70's and had to be rescued by the IMF.
 
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Toland

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The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
Dunno about in orthodoxy (I'd imagine they're the same), but in RC countries the space reserved in progressive developed countried by liberal public ethics is occupied by a weird, sexually obsessed and fundamentally makey-uppey "Catholic morality".

To explain it on a level of individual psychology, people spend their mental effort concentrating on feeling guilty about the wrong things.
 
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PO'Neill

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The Reformation was marked by a revolution concerning attitudes towards authority - where the Catholic and Orthodox tradition had focused on acceptance of theological dogma and obedience towards church hierarchy, the Protestant (and particularly Lutheran) attitude emphasised individual spiritual education, that each person would read the Bible to become their own canonical authority. This move from subjugation towards independence also transferred into commercial and political spheres, with the Dutch Republic and Elizabethan England undergoing seismic social upheaval, laying the groundwork for Weber's doctrine of "the Protestant work ethic" . With England, USA and Germany among the earliest examples of universal adult suffrage, the consolidation of democracy meant that clientelist power relationships failed to develop, and to this day, the division of Europe into Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox cultures marks the line between fiscal prudence and political/economic patronage. So, has religion facilitated the practice of "bending the rules" or are individual factors of national cultures more responsible?
Appearently Japan also has a problem with clientism, it's not a Protestant country as far as I know :rolleyes: Germany has a very large if not majority Catholic population and then their is France, Austria etc. To the Zoo :)

 

dubhthach

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It we ignore religion and look at secular history we can see that Gaelic Ireland was very much a society built around clientism. Some interesting means of enforcing a relationship such as for example a more powerful Lord giving a "gift" to a lesser lord. This in result would bind the lesser lord to the greater one in a clientlist relationship. If anyone thus attacked the "client" the "greater lord" could intervene/recieve compensation from the attacker.

Gaelic Ireland was probably as secular as modern society in most ways so I doubt very much that clientism in Ireland thus developed out of church which really only gained a dominant position in Irish society form 1840's/50's onwards.
 
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Wrong!

The largest denomination is those of no religion (the majority of whom are from protestant backgrounds, incidentally).
Only if you count 'no religion' as a denomination. A large part of that, of course, is down to anti-religious Communism in the East. In terms of actual religious identification, Catholicism is the largest (just).

Nonetheless the point stands - the southern (definitely Catholic) half of Germany (or Austria, for that matter) is not riven by clientilism and fiscal irresponsibility in the manner of, say, the United Kingdom in recent decades.
 

Analyzer

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Just wondering....but could it be said that in Orthodox countries, that Communism/Marxism has had a far greater impact on business and corruption than religion ?

In the aftermath of the Marxist state system, in the Soviet Union, there was rampant theiving, corruption, bullying, embezzlement, as former Communists decided to become capitalists.

And it is something that is completely inconsistent with the mores that existed in the pre-Communist era, when the aristocracy and the clergy ran the place.
 

irish_bob

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The largest denomination in Germany is Catholic. Meanwhile the UK, a Protestant country, has not been 'fiscally prudent' any more than Ireland has (and has been saved by being able to float its own currency) and a quick browse of Private Eye any week will tell you all you need to know about corruption and clientilism in British politics.

the largest denomination in the netherlands is also catholic but both it and germany are culturally protestant countries , a country can have balanced catholic - protestant mix and still be culturally protestant , canada is culturally protestant despite having more catholics
 

Troy_337

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Appearently Japan also has a problem with clientism, it's not a Protestant country as far as I know :rolleyes: Germany has a very large if not majority Catholic population and then their is France, Austria etc. To the Zoo :)

[video=youtube;Z-OyuUBX4c8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-OyuUBX4c8[/video]
 

sondagefaux

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Load of bollox. If you think that 17th and 18th century England/Britain was a model of financial stability and propriety in public appointments, then you're off your game.

I suggest the OP reads some history before spouting inane generalities.
 

True Republican

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I'd say the growth of socialism or social democracy in the last 100 years in the western world has contributed to the decline of values like fiscal rectitude rather than religion, people from a left wing perspective aren't exactly the most frugal when it comes to public spending for instance.
 
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