Is communist equal pay for all salary only hospital consultants hobbling recruitment?

ruman

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My property tax in Canada is something like 0.8% of the house’s assessed value but it’s a tax I don’t mind paying because it goes into municipal services all around me.
If you were paying tax and ending up with a health service so bad you cant use however you would mind. Social welfare transfer really.
 


Patslatt1

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But Irish PS pay is the best in the world. You've been telling us that for a decade Pat. Surely, now that you've convinced us, you're not changing your mind.

Next you'll be telling us that the PS doesn't have Rolls Royce, gold-plated pensions.

All the old certainties are crumbling before my eyes. :(
Glib smart remarks.
 

Ardillaun

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My family members have rarely had a serious problem with the medical care offered in Ireland. I’d say psychiatry is the only specialty that has really come up short but that’s not a failing confined to Ireland.
 

ruman

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My family members have rarely had a serious problem with the medical care offered in Ireland. I’d say psychiatry is the only specialty that has really come up short but that’s not a failing confined to Ireland.
An ancedote, sadly your families experience has no basis in reality. The fact that Private Health insurance take up has now reached record highs last seen during the Celtic Tiger shows the general population simply dont trust our public health service.

Meanwhile the utterly useless HSE continues to fail to investigate failings in a timely manner and put in place the steps required to prevent repitition. And people wonder why vast sums are spent on negligence compensation ! Dearie me.

Ostrich management.

 
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Orbit v2

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My family members have rarely had a serious problem with the medical care offered in Ireland. I’d say psychiatry is the only specialty that has really come up short but that’s not a failing confined to Ireland.
I agree. I had recent experience with an elderly relative. It was the usual story - an appalling situation in A&E, but eventually when admitted to the system, the care was second to none, all the way to palliative care. When the question arose (earlier) about whether they should switch to a private hospital (as they had a very good insurance plan) it was pointed out that the care would not be as good or extensive and that was right. At one point, they were being cared for by five or six different specialty teams and I never had cause for complaint once and it was all public.

The public system deals with the brunt of acute healthcare in this country and it does a good job. The private system cherry picks, bits and pieces here and there and fixes problems for otherwise healthy people, 9-5, Mon-fri but it's not comparable. The haters are always going to hate. They will never acknowledge the good work that is done by the public system. They prefer to see vast sums extorted from the taxpayer that could otherwise be spent on helping many people, being awarded in compo to individuals.
 

ruman

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I agree. I had recent experience with an elderly relative. It was the usual story - an appalling situation in A&E, but eventually when admitted to the system, the care was second to none, all the way to palliative care. When the question arose (earlier) about whether they should switch to a private hospital (as they had a very good insurance plan) it was pointed out that the care would not be as good or extensive and that was right. At one point, they were being cared for by five or six different specialty teams and I never had cause for complaint once and it was all public.

The public system deals with the brunt of acute healthcare in this country and it does a good job. The private system cherry picks, bits and pieces here and there and fixes problems for otherwise healthy people, 9-5, Mon-fri but it's not comparable. The haters are always going to hate. They will never acknowledge the good work that is done by the public system. They prefer to see vast sums extorted from the taxpayer that could otherwise be spent on helping many people, being awarded in compo to individuals.
More personal ancedotes ,back in the real world our public health service remains amongst the worst in the EU.

Ranked below Macedonia , Serbia and Estonia in fact. One wonders how salaries here compare to those countries!


I've had a friend whose child was left disabled as a result of a halfwit doctor. Another friend who died as a result of inadequte treatment inititially. His brother workers as a consultant in Oz and stated quite bluntly he would be alive if he lived in Oz. Plenty more ancedotes which like yours prove nothing really. Suffice to say our health service is p*ss poor, many reasons for that but no point pretending otherwise. Other EU members states dont accept that and neither should we.
 
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Orbit v2

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And what are the above only more anecdotes? Your consultant friend in Oz might not be entirely objective either. The extent of your "vision" for healthcare seems to be to just bash doctors and fleece the taxpayer for compo when something bad happens (eg that 30+ million compo award which you justified recently).

Statistics can be sliced and diced (and faked) many ways. Definitely, the two tier system makes us look bad and rightly so, though waiting times are clearly not as bad for the population as a whole (some of whom benefit from private insurance). Life expectancy is probably the single best indicator of the health of a population and Ireland ranks considerably higher than all three of the countries you mentioned above. So, I'd question some of the data fed into that survey. I've heard that in some countries they have no waiting times for certain procedures because they don't have the procedures...

Consultant salaries. I tend to agree (now) with the premise of this thread. One size fits all makes no sense. Different specialties deserve different pay rates. If posts can't be filled then either T&Cs or pay is not right (and it's definitely not all about pay). My guess is that the amount of work required to become a qualified consultant in maxillo-facial surgery (for example) is a lot more than psychiatry and the level of competition for training in these specialties varies enormously too.
 

Massey

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Consultant salaries. I tend to agree (now) with the premise of this thread. One size fits all makes no sense. Different specialties deserve different pay rates. If posts can't be filled then either T&Cs or pay is not right (and it's definitely not all about pay). My guess is that the amount of work required to become a qualified consultant in maxillo-facial surgery (for example) is a lot more than psychiatry and the level of competition for training in these specialties varies enormously too.
The biggest shortages are in areas like psychiatry, so do you think a psychiatrist should be paid more than a paediatric neurosurgeon or a consultant maxilla-facial surgeon?

This has been done in Australia and the US, as a result the pay for all consultants has increased significantly, so now an A&E consultant in Australia can earn more than 500k a year.
 

Sexual Harassment Panda

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Sack the health minister.
Pay salaries competitive with the private sector to the top handful of key HSE executives including the CEO and finance director. The HSE bog needs extremely capable managers. Maybe reforming the HSE Is Mission Impossible.
Abolish the HSE and remaining health boards. Fire everyone involved in public provision of healthcare and leave it to private entities to provide services in future.

Communists and Socialists will destroy anything they touch. As they destroy it, they propose yet more socialism to solve the problems they create.
 

Ardillaun

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An ancedote, sadly your families experience has no basis in reality. The fact that Private Health insurance take up has now reached record highs last seen during the Celtic Tiger shows the general population simply dont trust our public health service.
Not just anecdotes. (BTW every true anecdote, by definition, has a ‘basis in reality’.) The picture is not all bleak. Look at the tables you present. Where we really fall down is on accessibility. We do moderately well on outcomes, better on pharmaceuticals and well on prevention. What I’d like to hear from posters are practical suggestions for improvement.
 
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Ardillaun

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Abolish the HSE and remaining health boards. Fire everyone involved in public provision of healthcare and leave it to private entities to provide services in future.

Communists and Socialists will destroy anything they touch. As they destroy it, they propose yet more socialism to solve the problems they create.
With the caveat that government carefully controls free market providers. There are compelling reasons from basic economic theory not to leave health care entirely in the hands of the market.
 

Sexual Harassment Panda

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With the caveat that government carefully controls free market providers. There are compelling reasons from basic economic theory not to leave health care entirely in the hands of the market.
I'm cool with sensible regulation but always erring toward free markets. Communists knowingly use market regulation as a wedge for gaining power so people need to be forever vigilant. Their evil ideology requires that they hold power, any power.
 

ruman

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And what are the above only more anecdotes? Your consultant friend in Oz might not be entirely objective either. The extent of your "vision" for healthcare seems to be to just bash doctors and fleece the taxpayer for compo when something bad happens (eg that 30+ million compo award which you justified recently).

Statistics can be sliced and diced (and faked) many ways. Definitely, the two tier system makes us look bad and rightly so, though waiting times are clearly not as bad for the population as a whole (some of whom benefit from private insurance). Life expectancy is probably the single best indicator of the health of a population and Ireland ranks considerably higher than all three of the countries you mentioned above. So, I'd question some of the data fed into that survey. I've heard that in some countries they have no waiting times for certain procedures because they don't have the procedures.

Consultant salaries. I tend to agree (now) with the premise of this thread. One size fits all makes no sense. Different specialties deserve different pay rates. If posts can't be filled then either T&Cs or pay is not right (and it's definitely not all about pay). My guess is that the amount of work required to become a qualified consultant in maxillo-facial surgery (for example) is a lot more than psychiatry and the level of competition for training in these specialties varies enormously too.
Yes i posted that they were ancedotes that proved nothing! Try reading before posting.

I havent " bashed doctors" simply pointed out the service here in the public sector is extremely poor and backed that up.Given this its hard to justify the salaries. I've no problem paying for a decent service as i do privately here and abroad.

I didnt question your ancedotes disapointing that you would question mine. The individual is an extremely rational level person and he would not say what he said lightly, i have reason to doubt him.

I'd wish there was no " compo" but as pointed out the majority of these costs relate to future care needs so given medical salaries are high awards are high. Technically if medical salaries were cut awards would drop but we dont hear much about this funnilly enough.

Costs increase due to dragging the process out and errors happen more frequently as learnings arent applied quickly due to the culture of denial and cover up.
 

Orbit v2

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The biggest shortages are in areas like psychiatry, so do you think a psychiatrist should be paid more than a paediatric neurosurgeon or a consultant maxilla-facial surgeon?

This has been done in Australia and the US, as a result the pay for all consultants has increased significantly, so now an A&E consultant in Australia can earn more than 500k a year.

The biggest shortages are in areas like psychiatry, so do you think a psychiatrist should be paid more than a paediatric neurosurgeon or a consultant maxilla-facial surgeon?
I don't know. All I said was that there's no reason why pay should be the same for all specialties. I also said that pay is not the only factor. The mental health services in this country are pretty grim and probably do need a concerted level of investment just to make it more attractive to work in, never mind improve outcomes for patients.
 

ruman

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I don't know. All I said was that there's no reason why pay should be the same for all specialties. I also said that pay is not the only factor. The mental health services in this country are pretty grim and probably do need a concerted level of investment just to make it more attractive to work in, never mind improve outcomes for patients.
Yes increasing pay wont improve services in the slightest nor indeed will it improve working conditions. Of course the politicians will capitulate and throw a few euro a week at the consultants. The consultants useless union ( that shafted new entrants) will accept this despite zero improvement in working conditions. The general public will continue to sign up for private health insurance in record numbers.

Repeat every few years.

Meanwhile the HSE continues to fail to investigate failings yet we have people on here moaning and blaming victims for " compo payments" the mind boggles.

 
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ruman

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Not just anecdotes. (BTW every true anecdote, by definition, has a ‘basis in reality’.) The picture is not all bleak. Look at the tables you present. Where we really fall down is on accessibility. We do moderately well on outcomes, better on pharmaceuticals and well on prevention. What I’d like to hear from posters are practical suggestions for improvement.
You're only interested in tinkering around the edges and your focus is entirely on health models in anglo speaking countries as comparators.
Given there are far better health services closer to us and within the EU this isnt logical if your priority is to provide the best service for patients. In fairness this isnt exclusuvely a health problem public sector managers of all deparments invariably head off on costly fact finding missions to australia rather than visit non english speaking countries far closer to home.

As it is it looks like you are arguing on an online forum for payrises for yourself!
 
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Ardillaun

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You're only interested in tinkering around the edges and your focus is entirely on health models in anglo speaking countries as comparators.
Given there are far better health services closer to us and within the EU this isnt logical if your priority is to provide the best service for patients. In fairness this isnt exclusuvely a health problem public sector managers of all deparments invariably head off on costly fact finding missions to australia rather than visit non english speaking countries far closer to home.

As it is it looks like you are arguing on an online forum for payrises for yourself!
I was discussing the data you cited from Europe. I don’t believe the Anglosphere has the best systems. The top-rated ones seem to be the Netherlands and places like Switzerland and, of course, Scandinavia. There are some innovations we can import from these countries and some we probably can’t or would not want to. Tinkering around the edges is a good place to start. People see success and then buy into it.

My personal monetary interest in healthcare is over and my sole concern for Ireland at this stage is to improve the healthcare for my family and everybody else there.
 

Ardillaun

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I don't know. All I said was that there's no reason why pay should be the same for all specialties. I also said that pay is not the only factor. The mental health services in this country are pretty grim and probably do need a concerted level of investment just to make it more attractive to work in, never mind improve outcomes for patients.
Some years ago, I remember visiting the psychiatric unit in Galway and seeing rain coming in through a small hole in the wall. Fortunately, that at least has been rectified. In my Canadian health region, we have been talking at committee level about insufficient psychiatric beds and unfilled psychiatry posts for at least thirty years. The community care model in psychiatry, a well-intentioned proposal that suits some patients, was used by governments around the world to shut down too many hospital beds without financing community care adequately. When doctors send psychiatric patients home from hospitals they should be doing it for their benefit, not the bottom line.
 

ruman

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I was discussing the data you cited from Europe. I don’t believe the Anglosphere has the best systems. The top-rated ones seem to be the Netherlands and places like Switzerland and, of course, Scandinavia. There are some innovations we can import from these countries and some we probably can’t or would not want to. Tinkering around the edges is a good place to start. People see success and then buy into it.

My personal monetary interest in healthcare is over and my sole concern for Ireland at this stage is to improve the healthcare for my family and everybody else there.
Public services are seen as an act of charity in Ireland. The public sector unions here will always put the short term monetary gain for its members over the interest of patients. Best to go private so there's no confusion and you end up with a transaction between a consumer and a vendor.

Other than Revenue public services here are best avoided, lifes too short.
 


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