Is Democracy stopping us escaping the mess we are in??

Right is right

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I know this will be a strange thought but does this constant need for public approval and electoral success not contradict the requirements for tough leadership to get the country out of the mess that it is in?

At the moment we know we have a current deficit of 18-20bn per year due to a spending requirement of 50bn and an income of 30bn and this to my mind is a greater issue for the medium term future of the state than the banking issue but anytime anyone raises it people shout that anything to be done is unfair as the bankers are being compensated etc.

Anytime any hard decisions are made then local politicians whinge and moan about it's not fair, their constituents will lose out etc etc rather than thinking about the national good for once.

A perfect example is the popularity of Labour due to the fact that they are consistently refusing to put out their actual policies with back-up figures to show how they would solve the problems and yet people want to vote for them. You would think by now that the Irish people would sooner hear the bad news, see it backed up with figures, facts and policies and take things from there.

If we can't have a dictatorship or else get a party in who are prepared to worry about the national good ahead of party politics, electoral success etc then I think the following is required.

An election to be held before the next budget with all parties putting forward detailed proposals as to how they would fix the economy with numbers that can be analysed for the next 4/5 years (obviously there would have to be multiple scenarios in terms of growth rates etc which each party would have to include).

Parties would also have to say who they are prepared to go into coalition with so that we don't end up with a repeat of the Green going in with FF after promising to take them out. There would then have to be a tied up linking of their election proposals to say what they are prepared to sacrifice or what are non-negotiable.

If people then decide to vote on local interests or for certain policies then we will know what is most important and it will be understanding for the people that they will know what they are going to get.

PS - I know the idea of this happening is about as likely as a combination of -
Bertie Ahern admitting where the money came from
Brian Cowan admitting that FF screwed up the economy and
Brian Lenihan admitting he had no idea what he was doing when setting up the Bank Guarantee and NAMA and that it was the worlds worst idea
 


myrak

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A 'four year budget' cannot be brought in by a government that has a year and a bit of its term left.
The current members of the Dail have no mandate to cobble together a sort of 'group think' solution.
There is now a window between borrowings to put facts and figures on the table and give the ultimate 'payees', the taxpayers, a voice.
We are not 'all in this together' if voters are excluded.
 

Right is right

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A 'four year budget' cannot be brought in by a government that has a year and a bit of its term left.
The current members of the Dail have no mandate to cobble together a sort of 'group think' solution.
There is now a window between borrowings to put facts and figures on the table and give the ultimate 'payees', the taxpayers, a voice.
We are not 'all in this together' if voters are excluded.
That is why I suggested an election before the next budget so the parties could present their options for a 4/5 year budget so people could see what they were voting for.
 

sport02

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It would be dangerous to allow democracy prevail, according to FF.
They are the one's to get us out of this mess, we are told.
 

goosebump

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That is why I suggested an election before the next budget so the parties could present their options for a 4/5 year budget so people could see what they were voting for.

Yes, we do need an election now, but the idea that everything the a new Government does will be broadly accepted is hopelessly optimistic.

The response to every proposal is that "We can't do that because...etc etc"

Our choice at the moment is to have a damaged economy that we run ourselves or a damaged economy that is run by someone else.

What people don't seem to realise is that there are no cuts, or taxes, which will not do damage, and that the challenge is to find the cuts and taxes that will do the least damage.
 

Expatriot

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Even if the current opposition agree to the four year budget it is still meaningless. All of then all lose their seats before then and have to seek re-election. It is simply illegal and meaningless for them to agree to anything like that for a future Dail. We will elect someone in due course to make that decision. Jesus this crowd have not been able to manage six months at a time, I have no idea why they want a 4 year plan. Try getting to Jan first.
 

vanla sighs

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"Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" - American Declaration of Independence

If only we could apply it here. The government have become a destructive force. They have become traitors to the people. They no longer represent the people. They no longer represent our best interests.
 

myrak

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That is why I suggested an election before the next budget so the parties could present their options for a 4/5 year budget so people could see what they were voting for.
+1
And with today's warning to the opposition from Fitch not to stray from the govt line or they risk further downgrading of our credit rating, a decision which includes voters/taxpayers seems all the more urgent.
But will any current seat holders share this view?
 

redtoothclaw

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Sep 12, 2010
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There is no point of having an election because the die is cast.
Either the Irish government bails out the banks or they go belly up and what remains of our economy grinds to a shuddering halt.
Either the government demonstrates it's ability to cut back on spending, cut down on borrowing and pay back our debt or we default on our debts and we lose our sovereignty to the IMF.
Fine Gael, Labour etc can crow all they like. The die is cast.
They are going to be major cuts in pensions, social welfare, education, health, grants and much much more.
There are going to be lay offs of civil servants - gardai, doctors, nurses, teachers etc etc.
There is no other way out of this.
It is high time a lot of people in this country copped themselves on, grew up and stopped fooling themselves.
 

FakeViking

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We need an election now. Why? The current incompetents have shown they don't have the honour and dignity to admit their previous mistakes, and keep defending their errors. An incoming administration (EVEN IF IT'S THE SAME) provides a break from the 13 years of Ahern's blissful squandering of opportuinities.
 

Cael

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Its not democracy thats stopping us doing anything about our situation - its the false belief that we actually do have democracy in this country. We dont. We have a landowners and bankers oligarchy, and their front organisations Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.
 

TODevastated

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Oct 9, 2009
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There is no point of having an election because the die is cast.
Either the Irish government bails out the banks or they go belly up and what remains of our economy grinds to a shuddering halt.
Either the government demonstrates it's ability to cut back on spending, cut down on borrowing and pay back our debt or we default on our debts and we lose our sovereignty to the IMF.
Fine Gael, Labour etc can crow all they like. The die is cast.
They are going to be major cuts in pensions, social welfare, education, health, grants and much much more.
There are going to be lay offs of civil servants - gardai, doctors, nurses, teachers etc etc.
There is no other way out of this.
It is high time a lot of people in this country copped themselves on, grew up and stopped fooling themselves.
your menu of cuts above may be correct, however will ff make the HARD decisions

i doubt it, they have not done so yet
 

vanla sighs

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There is no point of having an election because the die is cast.
Either the Irish government bails out the banks or they go belly up and what remains of our economy grinds to a shuddering halt.
Either the government demonstrates it's ability to cut back on spending, cut down on borrowing and pay back our debt or we default on our debts and we lose our sovereignty to the IMF.
Fine Gael, Labour etc can crow all they like. The die is cast.
They are going to be major cuts in pensions, social welfare, education, health, grants and much much more.
There are going to be lay offs of civil servants - gardai, doctors, nurses, teachers etc etc.
There is no other way out of this.
It is high time a lot of people in this country copped themselves on, grew up and stopped fooling themselves.
It's high time a lot of the people in this country copped themselves on and grew up? What a load of rubbish. The ones who need to cop themselves on are the likes of you. Why should we rely on the people who got us into this mess to get us out of this mess? You'd like us to sit here like quiet little children while the government keep digging us into an ever increasing hole. Weak, apathetic point of view.

There are other avenues open to a new administration, despite what you may have read, heard or seen on the Pravda Network. Yes, there are going to be cuts, of course. But that does not mean every political party have the same strategy or outlook as to where those savings should come from . It'll be hard no matter who's in power, that fact isn't being disputed - as for the attitude that FF are the only show in town, there you are very mistaken.
 
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TODevastated

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Even if the current opposition agree to the four year budget it is still meaningless. All of then all lose their seats before then and have to seek re-election. It is simply illegal and meaningless for them to agree to anything like that for a future Dail. We will elect someone in due course to make that decision. Jesus this crowd have not been able to manage six months at a time, I have no idea why they want a 4 year plan. Try getting to Jan first.
whatever about the merits of the current 4 year plan

incoming govts should always have a 4 year plan rather that the annual charade that goes on each year at budget time

each sept we have a 3 month run in to the budget followed by
a three month run up to the finance act implementing the changes announced in each budget speech

and the product of this 6 month charade
5 cent on a pint
10 cent on cigarettes
widening of the tax bands
to name but a few of the tinkering about the edges that goes on each year

we have had waffle about funding of local govt for the best part of 20 years not to mention property tax and water rates

it just is very annoying

TDs have a five year time horizon and after that nothing
 

Expatriot

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Well if there is cuts in the budget for TD pensions and pay, that is a good reason to not have a budget before retiring. So maybe there is hope.
 


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