Is direct abortion the murder of an unborn human?

GDPR

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In my view direct abortion, termed termination by its advocates is in fact murder.
It is the deliberate taking of human life.

Those advocating pro choice are actually advocating that a woman should be allowed to murder her unborn infant.

Many pose this issue as somehow connected to a womans freedom to do what she likes with her body.
She indeed has that freedom but only in relation to her body and not in relation to the body of the unborn child which is distinct and separate from although within her.

Others say this is a womans only issue as though it only affects women.
This is not true as aborted babies are both genders.

Others say it is a human rights matter.
Of course it is and the primary issue is the right to life of both mother and child.

It really confounds me that rational people can not see what is at stake in this debate other than a right to life.

Life begins at conception .
This is scientifically proven.

Therefore to end that life deliberately and directly can only be a crime.

What do other posters think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
Re: Re: abortion is murder... | Big Think.
Yes, it is murder
 


Ireniall

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In my view direct abortion, termed termination by its advocates is in fact murder.
It is the deliberate taking of human life.

Those advocating pro choice are actually advocating that a woman should be allowed to murder her unborn infant.

Many pose this issue as somehow connected to a womans freedom to do what she likes with her body.
She indeed has that freedom but only in relation to her body and not in relation to the body of the unborn child which is distinct and separate from although within her.

Others say this is a womans only issue as though it only affects women.
This is not true as aborted babies are both genders.

Others say it is a human rights matter.
Of course it is and the primary issue is the right to life of both mother and child.

It really confounds me that rational people can not see what is at stake in this debate other than a right to life.

Life begins at conception .
This is scientifically proven.

Therefore to end that life deliberately and directly can only be a crime.

What do other posters think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
Re: Re: abortion is murder... | Big Think.
There's a lot of thrash being bandied about on this issue and ,fair play, at least you have cut to the central issue and the answer is plain and simple. If you think that a fertilized egg is a baby -you are a loon along with all of the other loons who've taken their opinion from Catholic doctrine. Amazingly Catholic doctrine in the past did not hold that position though - instead holding that the developing fetus was not 'ensouled' until it had developed further. They must be the only organisation which reacted to increasing understanding of the facts by retreating into a barbarous interpretation of them.
 

A REASON

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When the day comes that a 12 week old foetus can be kept alive and be allowed to fully develop in an artificial womb would you make it illegal to have an abortion?

Or will you want it killed?
Women don't have artificial wombs!!!
 

GDPR

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Jul 5, 2008
Messages
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In my view direct abortion, termed termination by its advocates is in fact murder.
It is the deliberate taking of human life.

Those advocating pro choice are actually advocating that a woman should be allowed to murder her unborn infant.

Many pose this issue as somehow connected to a womans freedom to do what she likes with her body.
She indeed has that freedom but only in relation to her body and not in relation to the body of the unborn child which is distinct and separate from although within her.

Others say this is a womans only issue as though it only affects women.
This is not true as aborted babies are both genders.

Others say it is a human rights matter.
Of course it is and the primary issue is the right to life of both mother and child.

It really confounds me that rational people can not see what is at stake in this debate other than a right to life.

Life begins at conception .
This is scientifically proven.

Therefore to end that life deliberately and directly can only be a crime.

What do other posters think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
Re: Re: abortion is murder... | Big Think.
I would agree with your post. But, sometimes murder is legal. It may be murder from a moral perspective, but not a legal one. In my view, no sane mother would ever intentionally kill her child. In the womb or otherwise. We have to look at the form of society that drives so many mothers to behave in such an insane manner. We live in a murderous society. It's a society that glorifies money and power, and exterminates the weak and vulnerable. In short, we have abandoned Christianity and returned to the cruel barbarism of the Roman Empire.
 

shutuplaura

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So morning after pill equals murder?

That's an extreme viewpoint. I can't respect such an extreme view to be honest. I have friends and loved ones who are pro life but allow for some basic nuance.

I fundamentally think equating a zygote, or even ten week old foetus with a baby isn't logical. They are too different things. A baby is a wonderful thing. I will be holding my sonas soon as I finish my commute and he is a joy to me. A foetus is going to be a baby perhaps, but isn't one yet.
 

Fr Peter McWhinger

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The Hong Kong case, R v Kwok Chak Ming (No.1) [1963] HKLR 226 provides an interesting Common Law precedent in relation to a child being born and dying of injuries received before birth.

The Hong Kong Court ruled that:

"In our view, when a baby is born alive but subsequently dies is a injury inflicted on it whilst in its mother’s womb, the person indicating injuries may, when the other ingredients of murder or manslaughter are present, be convicted of such a crime in respect of that child. It is, in our view, immaterial that, in such circumstances, the malice aforethought have been directed against the mother rather than the child that where A, intending to kill or seriously injure B, pursuit of that purpose, kills C he may be indicted for the murder of C applies, we think, with equal force even where C was only an embryo, or foetus at the time when the malice was manifested and the injury indicted but is subsequently born alive and dies of the injury."

Attorney General's Reference No. 3 of 1994

This raises the spectre that inducing early delivery of the unborn and in circumstances where the baby dies after birth it could give rise to criminal liability for murder.
 

Fr Peter McWhinger

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I would agree with your post. But, sometimes murder is legal. It may be murder from a moral perspective, but not a legal one. In my view, no sane mother would ever intentionally kill her child. In the womb or otherwise. We have to look at the form of society that drives so many mothers to behave in such an insane manner. We live in a murderous society. It's a society that glorifies money and power, and exterminates the weak and vulnerable. In short, we have abandoned Christianity and returned to the cruel barbarism of the Roman Empire.

Murder charges could be brought against Mothers traveling for abortion under the current Law.
 

PBP voter

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In the future we can time travel so we'll deal with that then.
Abortion is not only about ending a pregnancy.

It's also about getting rid of the baby.
 

Roisin3

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No it is not.

Many pregnancies spontaneously abort before the mother is even aware she is pregnant.

The Foetus is not capable of external life until 23 weeks - and even then only with great levels of support. 40 years ago births at 23 weeks often resulted in death very shortly after delivery.

Before the 23 week point it can be argued that the foetus is effectively a parasite i.e. dependent on its host (the mother) for survival.

It is nothing but semantics to refer to a foetus of less than 23 weeks gestation as an 'unborn child'. It is nowhere near fully developed and many of the sentient brain functions we have are not even started let alone developed. Just because it moves does not mean it is alive in a true sense.
23 weeks you say. As I mentioned before on another thread, Dakota Smith, daughter of Jewel Smith and JR Smith, of the NBA Cleveland Cavaliers, was born in January 2017, five months premature.

Google it and find thousands of articles, it was a big news story. One pound micro preemie, not even as long as her father’s middle finger.
 

A REASON

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Abortion is not only about ending a pregnancy.

It's also about getting rid of the baby.
That's a part of why it's such a difficult decision to have an abortion. It's not easy and women just won't go through that on a whim like the no side are claiming. It will be an extraordinary event or health related, it'll be agonising but it's important that women have the choice and we don't force them to travel or put their lives at risk.
 

GDPR

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So morning after pill equals murder?

That's an extreme viewpoint. I can't respect such an extreme view to be honest. I have friends and loved ones who are pro life but allow for some basic nuance.

I fundamentally think equating a zygote, or even ten week old foetus with a baby isn't logical. They are too different things. A baby is a wonderful thing. I will be holding my sonas soon as I finish my commute and he is a joy to me. A foetus is going to be a baby perhaps, but isn't one yet.
No, because it's very likely that conception hasn't taken place when the morning after pill is taken.
 

benroe

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Sooo, 10,000,000 women in Britain and 500,000 women here are guilty of murder, looks like we need a few more prisons.
 

GDPR

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That's a part of why it's such a difficult decision to have an abortion. It's not easy and women just won't go through that on a whim like the no side are claiming. It will be an extraordinary event or health related, it'll be agonising but it's important that women have the choice and we don't force them to travel or put their lives at risk.
The British HSE found that some women are using abortion as a contraceptive and are having repeat abortions - up to nine abortions.
 

Travis Bickle

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Let's ask the site's resident experts on what defines "murder".

Supporters of SF/advocates of the Provisional cult.....in this instance, what defines the term "murder" ?
Who allowed Savita Halappanavar to die? Not to mention the poor souls left on trolleys?
It would be a grand place if the faux moral brigade cared as much for the born.
 

shutuplaura

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No, because it's very likely that conception hasn't taken place when the morning after pill is taken.
Likely but not certain. If you believe that a sperm and egg meeting is instant person hood that is.
 


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