Is feminism in Ireland dead?

Macchiavelli

New member
Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Messages
4
Is feminism dead and gone? That recent survey of men's needs and wants in the IT showed that only 6% of the floppy-balled species thought that it was relevant.

As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won. Society recognises us as equal, but the legislature has to catch up. We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.

But I think in general that we should now be considering unifying with men on common social issues rather than seeing things as mens' or women's issues.

What do other P.ie layabouts think?
 


nonpartyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
6,782
What time is the football on tonight ?
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
35
Macchiavelli said:
Is feminism dead and gone? That recent survey of men's needs and wants in the IT showed that only 6% of the floppy-balled species thought that it was relevant.

As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won. Society recognises us as equal, but the legislature has to catch up. We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.

But I think in general that we should now be considering unifying with men on common social issues rather than seeing things as mens' or women's issues.

What do other P.ie layabouts think?

No its achieved it work, many women today are trouser wearing mingers.

Just look at how glam wimin were in the 70s.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=810TQyT2 ... re=related
 

Electro

Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
91
No, because it is a global virus; powerful throughout the Western world especially. Our country's affiliation with feminist organisations such as the United Nations, and the European Union ensure that this movement is not "dead".

Irish Times polls may have the number of self-identifying active feminists as low, that's not really important. Feminist laws and cultural memes are very much in prominence.

As for your manifesto:

As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won. Society recognises us as equal, but the legislature has to catch up. We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.
It's nothing but lies and unsubstantiated blanket claims. Like all feminist propaganda.

The only thing I can say about the feminist/women's movement is that it is at least consistent in its conceit, almost word for word. Your unsubstantiated "poor me" drivel - a facade under which lies uncompromising fundamentalism - might fly at the UN. I think wider informed society has increasingly less time for it however.

Take for example "the battle is nearly won"? Why must feminism/the women's movement always present this paradigm? It's always women don't have enough rights, women have "equality", but never that they just might in some circumstances have excessive rights, to the extent that they receive superior treatment compared to male members of society. Oh yes, that's right I forgot. Feminism is not about equality; never has been and never will be.
 

nixmix

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
224
We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.
Yes relatively less because women work less hours than men. Also men are more likely to work in a dangerous or physically demanding environment...therefore danger money etc etc..

And as for appalling health care system you have a woman to thank for that!

As for uniting together on social issues you are bang on there. I think its a disgrace that the Womens Council of Ireland gets funded very well whilst the Mens Council is practically ignored. What we need is a joint council where funds are distributed equally.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Messages
28
Twitter
@MichaelPolSci
Yes, there are less women in parliament than men but that is for one simple reason. Women don't want it badly enough. Knocking on doors for two years and shaking hands with every moaner in the constituency? Women haven't the patience for it. When women put work into something they want to see a return on their efforts. They will not risk hard work and lost time on the whims of the electorate. Many men also share this pragmatism but unfortunately, men have a disproportionate amount of power hungry hacks within their ranks than women, ergo, more men in parliament.

Feminism was created for a purpose and I think it has served its purpose as far as it can go within liberal democracies (taking into account the fact that the movement is rooted in communism). Women have as much choice and freedom as any man. However, nature dictates that they must bear the children which puts the brakes on careers for up to a year per child. My equality law lecturer told us that over a lifetime the pay gap between equally qualified men and women is about 18%. I think she was implying that there was a male conspiracy keeping female pay down but when you factor in kids, 18% seems to a be a reasonable difference.

The problem with pure equality is that it cannot stay that way. Either the original dominator or the origianally "oppressed" will take the first oppurtunity in this new equilibrium to tilt the balance in their favour. Men know this and will be reluctant to cede whatever marginal dominance remains for fear of being dominated. I am not defending gender inequality here. I am merely observing how it is.

Personally, women can have the rat race for all I care. I'll gladly sit at home all day watching Barney and teletubbies with the kids on my 52" Samsung while they trek out to work in the rain and congestion. Ladies, i'm not standing in your way.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
Macchiavelli said:
Is feminism dead and gone? That recent survey of men's needs and wants in the IT showed that only 6% of the floppy-balled species thought that it was relevant.

As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won. Society recognises us as equal, but the legislature has to catch up. We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.

But I think in general that we should now be considering unifying with men on common social issues rather than seeing things as mens' or women's issues.

What do other P.ie layabouts think?
Feminism is an entitlement ideology of white western middle-class women. It doesn't give a sh!t about brown women, black women, or women outside a very narrow European/North American middle class segment.
Feminism is frankly just a shopping list of what this class segment of women feel entitled to. Top jobs? Why bother working for them, just demand quotas. Got kids? Get other taxpayers to subsidise the costs of minding them. And then there is the endless angsting about white middle class women's anxieties - is fat a feminist issue? It shouldn't be, because the bulk of women on the planet actually don't get sufficient calories. But since it's a concern for this narrow societal segment, it's a concern for feminism.
Feminists pay lip service to the concept of equality when it suits their entitlement agenda. But they are most vicious opponents of equality in areas where it would involve middle class females in Europe and America ceding any power, such as the issues of child access, custody, and the fair distribution of assets following the break up of a relationship.
Feminism ceased being relevant a long time ago. Currently it veers from ever more preposterous shopping lists to ever more self-regarding angst about appearance to toxic hate speech against men. If any man spoke about women as Dworkin or MacKinnon speak about men, they'd likely be arrested for it, not given a high-paying tenure at a leading university from which to propagate their hate.
Feminism is a corrosive joke perpetrated on Western society. It has never sought actual emancipation for the majority of the world's women (the poor, the brown, the black, the Muslim). It has never sought equality with men when an unequal power grab was available instead. That's why most men don't see feminism as being relevant. Most men recognise it for the shopping list for entitled white women that it is, and has been for a long time.
 

draiocht23

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
308
Macchiavelli said:
As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won
Your throw away remark reveals rather a lot. Feminism is defined as “the doctrine of advocating social, political and all other rights equal to those of men”.
Nothing too outrageous there, so why does the mere word "feminism" or "feminist" engender such vitriol - as demonstrated by the majority of the posts in this thread here?

It is something I think about sometimes - has feminism become something of a dirty word? Even the apparent feminist who posted this, felt that she had to stress that she wore make-up and groomed - thus propagating a lazy and outmoded stereotype. Many women today, especially young women, baulk when asked if they would describe themselves as a feminist as the word has been bastardised and seems to conjure up images of dungaree-wearing, shaven-headed, man-hating, uber-lesbians.

However, if young women are asked if they support parity of payment for men and women - they agree; when you ask if women should be given the opportunity to work in professions that have been traditionally male dominated - they agree; when you ask if there should be a zero tolerance attitude towards violence against women - they agree; and when you ask if men should play an equal role in child-care and house-maintenance - they agree. These basic tenets inspired the feminist movement.

In essence, even though young women support the ideals that the feminist movement enshrine, the term feminist has been disassociated from these noble aspirations. The word has been hijacked, is viewed as a distasteful label, and instead now the word seems to be interchangeable with "angry, radical lesbian".

Many people here seem to think that it is time for "feminism" to do a victory lap and before making a quiet, dignified withdrawal from political circles. But how can one disassociate oneself from a desire to simply be equal? Not better, not worse - simply equal.
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,028

cHeal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
301
draiocht23 said:
Feminism has being Hyjacked by women who had something to lose by it. Now it is not about equality, it is about superiority. modern women want it both ways, they want equality with men and chivalry. They want equality but expect maternity leave. They want equality but get preferential treatment by the family courts, the crime courts and by the penal system.
 

draiocht23

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
308
cHeal said:
draiocht23 said:
Feminism has being Hyjacked by women who had something to lose by it. Now it is not about equality, it is about superiority. modern women want it both ways, they want equality with men and chivalry. They want equality but expect maternity leave. They want equality but get preferential treatment by the family courts, the crime courts and by the penal system.
Why are equality and chivalry mutually exclusive? I don't get that - chivalry is just a euphemism for civility. As a woman I like doors being held open for me - much better than getting them slammed in your face - while I'll also get a round of drinks in...that's not politics, it's polite..

Also, women being entitled to maternity leave does not mean that men should not be entitled to paternity leave....as I said before, feminism is about equality and not, as you seem to feel, superiority.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
You've accurately defined what feminism should be about, but as I already indicated in reality it bears those principles little resemblance.
What you hear from the majority of posters here is not vitriol - it's a collective raised eyebrow at yet another attempt to paint a picture of feminism that bears zero relation to the reality of the ideology as it actually is expressed and pursued.
 

cactus flower

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
75
I'm not aware of an active campaigning feminist movement in Ireland. I'd say the main reason for that is that women are too bloody busy holding down a job, having children and keeping up the ideal home. Perhaps the recession will lead to a resurgence.

I take jcskinner's point that feminists in the west are usually middle class women wanting a "fair share" of privilege. That is not to say that there are not many underprivileged women fighting feminist issues globally.
 

popper

Active member
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
297
Macchiavelli said:
Is feminism dead and gone? That recent survey of men's needs and wants in the IT showed that only 6% of the floppy-balled species thought that it was relevant.

As a woman and a 'neo-feminist' (ie I shave under my arms and use lots of lipstick) I think the battle is nearly won. Society recognises us as equal, but the legislature has to catch up. We still earn relatively less and suffer most from an appalling health care system.

But I think in general that we should now be considering unifying with men on common social issues rather than seeing things as mens' or women's issues.

What do other P.ie layabouts think?

I think you're a class bird.
 

draiocht23

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
308
JCSkinner said:
You've accurately defined what feminism should be about, but as I already indicated in reality it bears those principles little resemblance.
What you hear from the majority of posters here is not vitriol - it's a collective raised eyebrow at yet another attempt to paint a picture of feminism that bears zero relation to the reality of the ideology as it actually is expressed and pursued.
What or whose reality? Or is this just your own jaundiced stereotype? Posters have said that feminism is an archaic ideal. I just happen to believe that feminism - at its core, a desire for equality between the sexes - has been hijacked and is now somehow construed as threatening and harmful. Securing women's rights should not necessitate the erosion of men's rights. If feminism has been successful - and there is still considerable disparity when salaries are examined - perhaps men should take a few pointers and lobby, in a more cohesive manner, for rights that they feel are currently being denied to them eg: in family court matters

Put simply, if there have been advances for one demographic, it should not be assumed/accepted that anyone else should have to suffer a proportionate erosion in their previously held privileges/rights.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
What reality? The factual one, rather than the hate crime ideology delineated by some feminists, the fashion pages obsession of others, or the gaping lacunae of concern for black, brown, muslim, poor - in fact the MAJORITY of women on the planet.
It remains preposterous to assert that feminism has any attachment whatsoever to equality when it ignores the concerns of 95% of the people on whose behalf it claims to campaign, and when it aggressively demands inequality in terms of anti-meritocratic quota systems in parliaments (but not frontline military of course!) and defends the indefensible superiority women in the Western world exercise in family law.
 

merle haggard

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,434
whilst the likes of dworkin et al make me want to puke it has to be said though were it not for the feminist movement its likely it would still be socially acceptable to beat your spouse . It wasnt that long ago when many people took the view that rape was impossible within marriage and couldnt be prosecuted.
We also had a situation in this country were known child absuers were being given custody of and access to the same children they were abusing , simply because they were men .
There are some positives
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
3
Macchiavelli, I wish I had your optimism, but I do not think feminism is anywhere near the finish line, and to be honest, I often think we're wrong to even envision feminism as a movement which will someday reach its goal, and roll the end credits to a stirring orchestral fanfare. Perhaps we're wiser to view it as a tool which has been used to achieve some wonderful ends, but which we will always need to have close to hand, and which we must be ready to adjust and alter as the tasks for which we use it alter.

We live in an imperfect work, rife with injustices. This is simple fact. It is also fact that among the every day injustices of the world are those meted out to a huge portion of the world's population because they were born female. There are the great big injustices that are scary and happen 'out there' somewhere - female genital mutilation; honour killings; the systematic rape of women during war; sex-slave trafficking; abandonment of unwanted baby girls. And there are the insidious ones that are so normalised to our own culture that we don't even recognise them - the blockbuster movies with no female leads because men don't relate to female protaganists; the girls' sports teams who don't get the funding, training, or glory their brothers do; the woman (or women) you talk to every day who will never ever talk about the time she was raped, because we bury rape in silence and shame here; the voice in our heads if we do hear about it that wonders if she was drunk or inappropriately dressed and asking for it; the categorisation of female politicians as shrews or milfs (or fat bitches who need to learn to stay off the chocolate); the walk from home to school that is so drenched with advertising that commodifies the female body that we don't even see it any more.

These things are wrong. It doesn't matter if you can turn around and point to bad things that happen to men too. It doesn't make the above injustices any less wrong. And these injustices are tied to gender, they happen disproportionately to women by dint of the simple fact that they are women. (And they're perpetrated by women and men, because being born a woman doesn't get you a Get Out of Sexism Free Card either.) As long as people are treated as less than equal because of their gender we need a tool to combat it, as we need tools to combat discrimination on grounds of race, class, physical and mental ableness, age, and sexual orientation. That tool is feminism. This is what feminism is for.

(Look, sometimes you need a hammer to bang in the big, obvious nail without which things will all fall apart. [Think getting out there and fighting for justice against female genital mutilation.] And sometimes you need it to gently tap in a little tack that appears entirely redundant to some people, but which, one tack at a time, can help to make your whole structure stronger. [Think pointing out the fact that for all the greatness of its movies, Pixar have never made a kids' film with a female lead.] The hammer doesn't become worthless just because some people are trying to use it in a way that's ineffectual or dangerous. [Think American Republicans claiming its sexist to ask Sarah Palin legitimate questions about policy, because she's such a fragile snowflake.])

The things which we now accept as 'obvious' wrongs which were righted, like women voting and having the right to own property are only so in retrospect. They look obvious to us now because there were women and men who fought to challenge injustices they saw despite the sneering and jeering of those who saw them as entitled whingers disrupting the status-quo with their grabby superiority complexes.

Feminism isn't a single movement. Most people who self-identify as feminist and are involved in feminist debate these days talk about "feminisms". And feminism has flaws. It fractures along the same lines as most movements do - when people who are good at recognising and fighting injustice when it's sexism fail to recognise and fight it when it turns up as ageism, or racism, or ablism, or homophobia, or classism, or whatever. People are fallible, even the best intentioned. That's why we need to remain open to discussion, and be ready to listen to other voices. It's why feminism has to be open to change. It's no reason for telling all feminists to sit down and shut up, because they've somehow lost the game. (Damn, I just lost the game.)

JCSkinner said:
What reality? The factual one, rather than the hate crime ideology delineated by some feminists, the fashion pages obsession of others, or the gaping lacunae of concern for black, brown, muslim, poor - in fact the MAJORITY of women on the planet.
It remains preposterous to assert that feminism has any attachment whatsoever to equality when it ignores the concerns of 95% of the people on whose behalf it claims to campaign, and when it aggressively demands inequality in terms of anti-meritocratic quota systems in parliaments (but not frontline military of course!) and defends the indefensible superiority women in the Western world exercise in family law.
Can I ask - and this is a genuine question, not a rhetorical snipe - which feminist writers or organisations you mean? My own experiences of feminism come largely from academic second-wave writers, and from growing feminist blog culture, which does include an increasing number of women whose class or colour has often kept them out of mainstream feminist debate. However, there are those who ID as feminists who disagree radically with one another - as with any school of thought - so it's probably more useful in debate if we can narrow down, at least a little, whom we mean when we talk about "some feminists".
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top