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Is Gov't replacing family with State?


Big Brother

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Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Fitzgerald favours subsidised childcare over benefit - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 27, 2012

Lots of conspiracy theories surrounded the Children's referendum.

John Waters even spoke of the "Austerity Man" coming in the middle of the night to steal away your child.

But perhaps a more rational explanation is this: Many quangos have sought the creation of a state funded childcare industry which - of course - will be in the hands of the public sector and by extension the croke park trade unions that run it.

The children's referendum is unlikely to resulting in late night childsnatching by the state.

What it will do is give lotsof NGOs a legal claim for huge funding to provide service that ought to be provided by the family.

Frances Fitzgerald - whoe although nominally FG - is really one of Garrett Fitzgerald's protege's and is more Labour than Labour themselves - is a major champion of this approach.

The reality is that whatever about the failings of teh church and individual families had the state had charge of our kids the abuse would have been ten times worse.

The HSE shows what happens when you put the Irish state in charge of anything.

This proposal is a direct attack on the individual liberties of our citizens.

A gov't that has just cut child benefit and maternity allowance - not to mention proposed legalising abortion - but which is now proposing that we give it power over our kids has obviously lost all sense of irony, direction and common sense.

It should be told in no uncertain terms that we don't want the state to have anything more to do with our children.

Keep state's hands off our kids.
 

Analyzer

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Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
Fitzgerald is a genius. There are clearly not enough quangos in Ireland. And there are not enough programs to be directed by quangos.

We need more quangos. Take the money off the people, and then give it back in the form of a present from a quango. What a joke of an institutional state.
 

mr. jings

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Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
8,095
Fitzgerald is a genius. There are clearly not enough quangos in Ireland. And there are not enough programs to be directed by quangos.

We need more quangos.
And as for that guy Waters? Let's all listen to his balanced, untwisted views on the family and morality...
 

Analyzer

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
And as for that guy Waters? Let's all listen to his balanced, untwisted views on the family and morality...
How about him and Sinead discuss this.....
 

White Horse

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Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
7,064
It is designed to encourage women to work outside of the home.

A laudable motive, once it doesn't discriminate against women who choose to work in the home, by taking all support from them and giving it to those who work outside of the home.
 

hmmm

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Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
2,834
A voucher system would eliminate the need for inefficient state childcare monoliths. I think replacing child benefit that is often spent on everything except childcare with a targeted approach is an excellent idea.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,616
It is designed to encourage women to work outside of the home.

A laudable motive, once it doesn't discriminate against women who choose to work in the home, by taking all support from them and giving it to those who work outside of the home.
Work "in the home"...hmmmmm.

My wife and I have had to do both over the past 15 years and to be honest people "working in the home" are beginning to get on my wick. Why should people balancing work and home, paying tax on two salaries, NOT get preferential treatment?
 

ger12

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,255
Work "in the home"...hmmmmm.

My wife and I have had to do both over the past 15 years and to be honest people "working in the home" are beginning to get on my wick. Why should people balancing work and home, paying tax on two salaries, NOT get preferential treatment?
hmmmmm, yourself. I've worked mostly in the home for 12 years. Rented for most of it, one foreign holiday in 10 years, old cars, tight budgets, to be able to stay at home with my children. Why should you be treated preferentially because you chose not to?
 
D

Dylan2010

The state doesnt want stay at home parents, they cant be taxed and they cant overpay for taxable assets like houses. The ironic thing is that society would be in a better place if the gov. didnt have an opinion on this. More families would have run their finances based on one income and not on bubble era double incomes which would rise to infinity.
 

potholedogger

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Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
The Scandanavian Countries have very high levels of female participation in the workforce. This change will be necessary. almost 3 girls attend University in Ireland for every tow boys who attend.
 

damus

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Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
23,671
Reading between the lines this is really about reducing the upper qualifying age from 16 if out of f/t education and 18 if in f/t education down to 12 years of age for all children!
 

Shpake

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,374
Fitzgerald favours subsidised childcare over benefit - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 27, 2012

Lots of conspiracy theories surrounded the Children's referendum.

John Waters even spoke of the "Austerity Man" coming in the middle of the night to steal away your child.

But perhaps a more rational explanation is this: Many quangos have sought the creation of a state funded childcare industry which - of course - will be in the hands of the public sector and by extension the croke park trade unions that run it.

The children's referendum is unlikely to resulting in late night childsnatching by the state.

What it will do is give lotsof NGOs a legal claim for huge funding to provide service that ought to be provided by the family.

Frances Fitzgerald - whoe although nominally FG - is really one of Garrett Fitzgerald's protege's and is more Labour than Labour themselves - is a major champion of this approach.

The reality is that whatever about the failings of teh church and individual families had the state had charge of our kids the abuse would have been ten times worse.

The HSE shows what happens when you put the Irish state in charge of anything.

This proposal is a direct attack on the individual liberties of our citizens.

A gov't that has just cut child benefit and maternity allowance - not to mention proposed legalising abortion - but which is now proposing that we give it power over our kids has obviously lost all sense of irony, direction and common sense.

It should be told in no uncertain terms that we don't want the state to have anything more to do with our children.

Keep state's hands off our kids.
Once again I get these half reconciled stories that are doing the rounds and don't know where to place them. Well maybe Pie can help, that's one of the reasons that it's there. I recall some docu film or radio prog (I believe from RTE) or maybe it was a snatch of a conversation... It would seem that in the fifties or forties or thirties... or twenties ... or all along, there was this official called the cruelty man who would come and take the babies or children away from unmarried mothers or was it wives who had left their husbands for someone else? It was only mentioned in passing really, but it seemed it was like the "glimmer man" of the 1930's and forties who used to go into peoples' houses to make sure they were not using the gas or electricity outside of rationing hours. Terror might be too extreme a word to use but the Irish free state had its rules and regulations. I don't want to derail your thread and maybe this belongs in the history file. It's your sentence: "John Waters even spoke of the "Austerity Man" coming in the middle of the night to steal away your child." that set my neurons firing.
 

borntorum

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Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
12,805
In principle I agree that child benefit would be better invested in public services for children and families. Handing out wads of cash per month is not an efficient or sensible approach.

But this proposal won't take off. The stay at home mothers would go crazy (remember the outcry over the much less controversial tax individualisation in the 1990s) and it would arguably be unconstitutional. I agree with the OPer who remarked that Frances Fitzgerald is more Labour than Labour themselves - I can't see most of her FG colleagues having any time for this proposal
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,616
hmmmmm, yourself. I've worked mostly in the home for 12 years. Rented for most of it, one foreign holiday in 10 years, old cars, tight budgets, to be able to stay at home with my children. Why should you be treated preferentially because you chose not to?
Eh - 'cos I'm paying tax?
 

ffc

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Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
5,167
Work "in the home"...hmmmmm.

My wife and I have had to do both over the past 15 years and to be honest people "working in the home" are beginning to get on my wick. Why should people balancing work and home, paying tax on two salaries, NOT get preferential treatment?
Why don't most people work in the home. By which I mean why don't all those jobs which involve sitting at a desk, talking on the telephone and tapping away on a keyboard get done at home? I bet people would be just as productive, maybe more so, if they could schedule the work required in their own environment. These huge offices with thousands of people sitting at desks trying to find things to do for 8 hours a day are laughable.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,616
Why don't most people work in the home. By which I mean why don't all those jobs which involve sitting at a desk, talking on the telephone and tapping away on a keyboard get done at home? I bet people would be just as productive, maybe more so, if they could schedule the work required in their own environment. These huge offices with thousands of people sitting at desks trying to find things to do for 8 hours a day are laughable.
I'm not sure where you work, but looking around my "huge offices" I see people who find it difficult to get through their workload in 8 hours, much of the work admittedly wasteful, but required by law - audited accounts, VAT reporting, HR policies, etc. The ONLY place you're going to get people struggling to keep themselves busy for 8 hours a day will be the public sector.
 

ffc

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Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
5,167
I'm not sure where you work, but looking around my "huge offices" I see people who find it difficult to get through their workload in 8 hours, much of the work admittedly wasteful, but required by law - audited accounts, VAT reporting, HR policies, etc. The ONLY place you're going to get people struggling to keep themselves busy for 8 hours a day will be the public sector.
So much of that stuff could be done at home, instead of wasting time travelling to and fro and don't try and pull the wool over my eyes. I have worked in both private and public sector, the private sector is full of meetings, where minutes are taken and hours are wasted, full of people walking around offices with headphones on waving their arms about, staying on after hours because they are too disorganised to get things done on time. By the way those things audited accounts ,VAT reporting, HR policies, well they do them in the Public Sector too, but, of course those kind of administrators are to be pilloried and castigated, the modern day lepers.
 
D

Dylan2010

I'm not sure where you work, but looking around my "huge offices" I see people who find it difficult to get through their workload in 8 hours, much of the work admittedly wasteful, but required by law - audited accounts, VAT reporting, HR policies, etc. The ONLY place you're going to get people struggling to keep themselves busy for 8 hours a day will be the public sector.
i feel your pain , how many pointless man years are wasted discussing if something is taxable or not, whether someone is an employee or a contractor. And dont get me started on elf and safety , I believe I needed to pay someone to see if my calculator was safe.....
 

Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,616
So much of that stuff could be done at home, instead of wasting time travelling to and fro and don't try and pull the wool over my eyes. I have worked in both private and public sector, the private sector is full of meetings, where minutes are taken and hours are wasted, full of people walking around offices with headphones on waving their arms about, staying on after hours because they are too disorganised to get things done on time. By the way those things audited accounts ,VAT reporting, HR policies, well they do them in the Public Sector too, but, of course those kind of administrators are to be pilloried and castigated, the modern day lepers.
Please tell me you're taking the p1ss here....I have also worked on both sides of the great divide. The reason "minutes" are taken is so that there's a record of who is going to do what, when and why, so that things get done. In the public sector I've seen the same meetings, but no record of what was agreed and who was going to do what....that means there has to be another meeting, then another and before long it's like a re-run of Groundhog Day, but NOTHING gets done until some bright-spark suggests getting in a consultant/contractor. The people walking around with "head phones" are typically selling/buying/trading or just making sure projects are being delivered.

I find it ironic when someone in the public sector calls the private sector unproductive considering a private sector company has to pay it's own way first and then also pay rates, PRSI, corporation tax, etc. to fund the public sector too, and all it gets in return is more rules and regulations to make it harder to succeed.

Y
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
Fitzgerald favours subsidised childcare over benefit - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 27, 2012

Lots of conspiracy theories surrounded the Children's referendum.

John Waters even spoke of the "Austerity Man" coming in the middle of the night to steal away your child.

But perhaps a more rational explanation is this: Many quangos have sought the creation of a state funded childcare industry which - of course - will be in the hands of the public sector and by extension the croke park trade unions that run it.

The children's referendum is unlikely to resulting in late night childsnatching by the state.

What it will do is give lotsof NGOs a legal claim for huge funding to provide service that ought to be provided by the family.

Frances Fitzgerald - whoe although nominally FG - is really one of Garrett Fitzgerald's protege's and is more Labour than Labour themselves - is a major champion of this approach.

The reality is that whatever about the failings of teh church and individual families had the state had charge of our kids the abuse would have been ten times worse.

The HSE shows what happens when you put the Irish state in charge of anything.

This proposal is a direct attack on the individual liberties of our citizens.

A gov't that has just cut child benefit and maternity allowance - not to mention proposed legalising abortion - but which is now proposing that we give it power over our kids has obviously lost all sense of irony, direction and common sense.

It should be told in no uncertain terms that we don't want the state to have anything more to do with our children.

Keep state's hands off our kids.
The best childcare is that provided by a childs Mother and Father....

Which is Political Heresy to Liberal Ireland!:shock:
 
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