• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Is high €19 billion public sector pay bill, 15% of national income, reducing government services and dragging down the economy?


patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Is high €19 billion public sector pay bill, 15% of national income, reducing government services and dragging down the economy?

Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
-There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
-In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
-Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.
 

The Herren

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
4,866
Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
-There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
-In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
-Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.
I would like to comment but the last time I did the Site Police deleted my thread so I won't tempt fate.
 

cabledude

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
6,362
Obviously. But that's not the only issue.Quangos and bank bailouts are also pulling down our economy. But your O.P. is correct. But this isa situation that will not change. The Government are committed to Croke Park with every bone in their body, so on we go
!
 

Baztard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
314
As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
 

ManOfReason

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
4,328
Nothing will change. Government employees and other special interests vote while the broke and disillusioned individuals emigrate. We have already reached the point where this sort of logic has bankrupt the country but since we know no other way we plough on regardless.
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
The logic is that we can spend ourselves rich by increasing public sector pay!
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Obviously. But that's not the only issue.Quangos and bank bailouts are also pulling down our economy. But your O.P. is correct. But this isa situation that will not change. The Government are committed to Croke Park with every bone in their body, so on we go
!
AKA as CPA, corrupt,pandering, a*******s.
 

Fr.Ted Crilly

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
13,267
As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
Lining the pockets of the private sector?

How much VAT do you pay on things?
How much VRT/VAT do you pay if you buy a new car?
How much will you pay in a property tax? Thats after you've paid yout income tax/usc/prsi/pension levy.
Your not exactly 'lining the pockets' of the private sector are you?, a lot of our money goes back to the government in indirect taxation so you can get paid 50% more than the private sector again next week.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,840
The pay is too high because the PS run the real risk of being made unemployed at a moments notice.

Begrudgers in the private sector have no appreciation of that, some of whom can enjoy the luxury and stability of rolling monthly or weekly contracts.
 

firefly123

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
28,155
Jaysus pat. Why do you persist with this lie about 50%? Is it the Davy report that when slightly examined compared hairdressers to guards or is it the CSO report that tells you in the report not to compare literally as its not supposed to be read that way?
You have been shown on numerous occasions why you are wrong on this yet you continue to persist with it. I can only assume you either have a head injury or you are outright lying and looking to fool those who don't know your track record here.
You post could be correct. The rest of what you say might even have some merit but you preface it with an outright lie and it ruins any point your trying to make. I know you'll either say something asinine like 'ya! Boo! Troll!' or 'statistical purity' or you will scuttle off, dodge my point and then start a new thread on this in a few hours/days.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,840
As a civil servant I'll keep spending every penny I earn in the domestic economy, i.e. lining the pockets of the private sector, and that's after giving back circa 50% of everything I earn to the Government in the first place, before I take home a penny..sorry...cent. We are not all Secretaries General you know!
Would you prefer to be on the dole?
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
52,059
Croke Park is the economic equivalent of the Munich Agreement. The public sector are our ubermensch and the private sector the untermensch, in terms of the former's pay being preserved while the rest must accept cuts and unemployment without the goldplated redundancy payments/pensions of the former. :roll: We have university librarians on more than President Obama, and who expect the Germans to continue paying for hugher salaries than their own public sector are paid. To sustain this trough of privilege, taxes and charges are increased e.g. charges on private health insurers for beds which make their way into our premia. These charges and the lack of progress on competition in shelters like the legal-profession, publicans, and public transport in turn cripple small business and investment into Ireland, prolonging mass unemployment. We have restored feudalism in Ireland.
 
Last edited:

firefly123

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
28,155
Croke Park is the economic equivalent of the Munich Agreement.
A pay agreement is the same as the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia? I'm no big fan of the CPA myself but that's so daft that my daftometer just exploded.
 

riker1969

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
1,796
Funny how you all swallowed the figure of 50% plus. Im a teacher on 52k-does that mean there are private sector teachers on 26k with a degree and 20 years teaching experience plus three post grads -I doubt it. You are fools if you swallow this mans shyte and worse you waste an inordinate amount of time responding to it.
 

riker1969

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
1,796
A pay agreement is the same as the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia? I'm no big fan of the CPA myself but that's so daft that my daftometer just exploded.
The level of discourse on this site is appalling. Both of you should be ashamed
 

Kevin Doyle

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Messages
11,067
The level of discourse on this site is appalling. Both of you should be ashamed
its why its falling off a cliff.

polithicks.ie.

its just a time passing joke now.
 

macs magic

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
2,214
Your question should be about welfare.Public servants actually work for their pay,most of them anyway
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,179
patslatt's daily public sector bashing thread - nothing new here (not even the usual misinformation and dodgy statistics).

It is always worth noting that patslatt goes on about how low private sector wages are yet never talks about how high private profits are or how when the private sector bankers and developers create a bubble economy, working class people - public sector, private sector and unemployed, are expected to carry the can for the losses.

And of course we can't talk about taxing the rich and the private sector companies - oh no - they would run away with all their money and we need it to invest in the economy - Newsflash - they are not investing in the economy, private sector investment has collapsed (they are hiding it in the Caymen Islands) - so if you want private sector investment in the economy the only way to ensure it is to actually take the money off of them and use it for targeted investment to benefit the needs of the population, not to line the pockets of the richest 10%.

Here pat - specially for you -
[video=youtube;S6ZsXrzF8Cc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ZsXrzF8Cc[/video]
 
Last edited:

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
-There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
-In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
-Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.
Where to start with this repeated bout of ignorance and plethora of deliberate misrepresentation...
First of all I am not going to bother debating this, it is a pointless exercise as the supporters of the anti-PS line refuse to admit mistakes or errors in their supporting facts but a few quick points as this has all been rebutted by myself and others ad nauseum:
German teachers are paid slightly more then Irish teachers and after you add in the 22% cheaper cost of living in Berlin to Dublin that means we are substantially underpaid if you use German pay as a comparator (as Pat did).
The "50%" over pay by the PS is inaccurate for several reasons any of which are good enough to discard them entirely if you are scientifically detached, among them the inaccurate job comparisons such as that between a Gardai and a security guard and the fact thaat the comparison was made before the 15% plus pay cuts to PS.
There is substantial evidence that the only way to improve teacher performance is to train and cultivate the best from the teachers we have as we already select from the top 10% of graduates.
The following study (seen as very persuasive by the actual scientists in the area as opposed to dogamtic ideologues) shows that performance related pay is a waste of money and can be counter-productive as it lowers morale.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/reprints/2010/RAND_RP1416.pdf

"Thus, POINT was focused on the notion that a
significant problem in American education is the absence of appropriate incentives, and that correcting
the incentive structure would, in and of itself, constitute an effective intervention that improved
student outcomes.
By and large, results did not confirm this hypothesis. While the general trend in middle school
mathematics performance was upward over the period of the project, students of teachers randomly
assigned to the treatment group (eligible for bonuses) did not outperform students whose teachers
were assigned to the control group (not eligible for bonuses)."

I could go on but as I said it iss like flogging a dead horse at this stage.

I am of the opinion that compulsary redundancies may indeed be necessary in some areas: (from 2nd hand knowledge and 3rd rate journalistic reports which count for 24k proof around here) accounts there are too many middle and upper managers by far whose only purpose seems to be to make themselves seem needed by heaping unnecessary paperwork on their unfortunate underlings.
This is what we should have had from Colm McCarthy, he should have spent his time rooting out this wasteful, parasitic and morale destroying minority instead his 20W intellect regurgitated a cut everything and everyone by 10% mantra worthy of the most inept of snakeoil management consultants.
If this minority is as thought about the 3,000 mark or so in the HSE alone then we can surely assume (I plucked the figure from my ass in homage to PatSlatt) that there may be 5,000 throughout the entire public service on an average pay of 70-80,000 so there is a 375,000,000 saving at least (excluding pensions and redundancy payments).
 

Con Gallagher

Well-known member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
2,413
Germany and France pay their public sectors less than the private sector averages with no ostensible ill effects on efficiency and delivery of government services.Job security in both countries is considered an attractive feature of public sector employment,although high costs of redundancies make it very hard to sack private sector workers.In contrast,even after austerity cuts Ireland pays the public sector (civil service,teachers,gardai,HSE and hospitals) about 50% more than the private sector average but delivers far fewer free services,notably in health care.If this pay is unjustifiably high,obviously that takes from money that should be available for services.

In Finance's budget forecast,2012 pay was estimated at €19 billion,which is 15% of estimated gross national income of €131 billion. If this pay was cut to roughly the same level as the private sector's,the figure would be €12.7 billion,a cut of €6.3 billion in arguably unnecessary pay. The pay bill is 15% of national income and the arguably unnecessary portion is 5%. That €6.3 billion would go a long way to reducing the national deficit.

The experience of Germany and France argues for the pay cuts. But there are some arguments for high pay in certain areas:
-There is very strong evidence that the best teachers are about four times as productive as average teachers,in achieving literacy and numeracy for example. So high teacher pay,provided a high proportion is in peer reviewed bonuses (about to be introduced in England),is definitely justified.
-In Singapore,arguably the world's most efficient government (though with an unpleasant authoritarian streak),top civil servants and government ministers are paid as much as top corporate executives. Their responsibility for running large organisations in the main departments of government such as Finance,Health,Social Welfare,Education,Justice,Defence and Foreign Relations is used to justify high pay.In Ireland,such pay would not be justified in other departments that are PR fluffery.Many would object to such high pay for politicians on the basis that high incomes would distance them from the economic realities of people's lives.
-Given the high level of incompetence reported in the press about low paid police forces in the UK and the US,high pay for the Garda Siochana seems justified.Modern police need to be better educated than a generation ago to deal with complex court cases and be able to use advanced IT systems.The latter is a weak area in the Garda because of the custom of appointing gardai to IT management jobs instead of civilians.
Generalities, cliches, estimates (how many points use the words "roughly" "about" "seems" "ostensibly" etc?). A potentially good point is ruined by these.
 
Top