• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Is ignorance/denial the main obstacle to addressing the economic crisis?


Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,615
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
 
Last edited:

Fractional Reserve

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
8,326
People don't care until things get really bad , they will listen to what politicians say .We know the politicians will scapegoat left right and center .The banks are a major problem , but so is the soveriegn vote buying debt which will just keep growing , most western welfare states are in the same boat .The political system of no term limits and career vote buying politicians is now showing itself to be very destructive .
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to direcrtly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

I the adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,865
Don't get me started!


Did you hear the Union gimp on Pat Kenny this morning claiming that we need a €3 Billion stimulous package?

By the end of next year we will have had a five year, €100 Billion stimulus package, and nothing to show for it.
 

Ribeye

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
Global Debt - $210 Trillion

Global GDP - $60 Trillion

That's 350% folks,

Talk all ye want boys and girls, it doesn't matter,

Ireland may not be Greece, but Earth fckn is,

You're all living in a History Channel Special Edition Box Set,

And nobody is coming to save ye, sorry,

Buckle up:)
 

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,073
Twitter
No
"Too big to fail" met the "green jersey" and the "croke park agreement".
 

Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,615
Global Debt - $210 Trillion

Global GDP - $60 Trillion

That's 350% folks,

Talk all ye want boys and girls, it doesn't matter,

Ireland may not be Greece, but Earth fckn is,

You're all living in a History Channel Special Edition Box Set,

And nobody is coming to save ye, sorry,

Buckle up:)
The concept of "global debt" is meaningless to some extent because it's all "our" debt and there will be a tipping point where the numbers become meaningless.

What the numbers do say is that we, as a species, need to learn to be more content with slower, organic growth and market evolution in the future and essentially go back to the future. We will need to find a balance where more people buy what they need with cash - not credit and this will seriously limit growth.

Governments will need to be real leaders here though, because the "golden" era of states being able to be both capitalist (for the rich) and socialist (for the vulnerable) simultaneously are, as you say, a thing of the past and very hard decisions and adjustments are required.

Sadly in Ireland, our government appear to be completely oblivious to this reality and are betting the farm (or at least the tax payers farm) on a recovery so they can avoid making any decisions until they can retire.
 

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,073
Twitter
No
Usually debt is matched with assets on the other side. The problem arose when the assets dropped in value and were shored up with new debt, but remained worth less than the new debt.

NAMA was an attempt to remove x thousand properties from the market which would have sold for peanuts. You have to allow prices to reach rock bottom before they'll rise again.
 

SeanieFitz

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!
 

daveL

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,593
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
no I don't think so

an entrenched statist administration with delusions of grandeur and unsustainable senses of entitlement would be the biggest obstacles I see to addressing the economic crisis.
 

Ribeye

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!
Em, IBEC & ISME are the largest welfare dependants in the country!

I make no comment on INM & Newstalk, as I don't want the site to get sued for defamation:)
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,865
You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!

The reason you are losing the argument is because your argument was ridiculous from the get-go.

The lending bubble ended, and the tax take from the lending bubble ended with it.

We now have to cut the excessive expenditure that was funded by the tax bubble.

Not because the people on the receiving end of the money don't have a good argument for continuing to receive what they have been receiving.

But because there is no shagging money!

It doesn't exist.

If the Banks cannot sell bubble levels of new bonds, then the banks cannot pump the money raised from the sale of bonds into the economy, and the Government cannot spend the tax windfall.

Could not be simpler.
 

Trainwreck

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
26,809
Global Debt - $210 Trillion

Global GDP - $60 Trillion

That's 350% folks,

Talk all ye want boys and girls, it doesn't matter,

Ireland may not be Greece, but Earth fckn is,

You're all living in a History Channel Special Edition Box Set,

And nobody is coming to save ye, sorry,

Buckle up:)
Global debt $350 trillion

Global wealth held as debt €350 trillion.



This is a distribution issue only when you look at it on a global level.

Do a thought experiment. What if the entire €350 trillion debt was defaulted on tomorrow, what would be the next effect on global net financial wealth?


The answer is none.

What would be the ration of global debt to GDP after the default - 0%
 

SeanieFitz

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
The reason you are losing the argument is because your argument was ridiculous from the get-go.

The lending bubble ended, and the tax take from the lending bubble ended with it.

We now have to cut the excessive expenditure that was funded by the tax bubble.

Not because the people on the receiving end of the money don't have a good argument for continuing to receive what they have been receiving.

But because there is no shagging money!

It doesn't exist.

If the Banks cannot sell bubble levels of new bonds, then the banks cannot pump the money raised from the sale of bonds into the economy, and the Government cannot spend the tax windfall.

Could not be simpler.
Ah Tonto to the rescue.
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,211
Nobody was held accountable in Ireland so far so why would anybody have a clue what really went wrong. Popular commentary now makes primarily the Germans responsible for Irish folly by lending too much money to the punters, what's the point in identifying the real issues if they only put further blame on the local Irish actors?
 

Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,615
You are repeating yourself DD or do you believe that if if simply say something often enough it will happen?

You are preaching to the converted here as anyone that disagrees with your right wing views have left the site, you have your "fans" eating out of your hands. It is now totally unacceptable to even try and defend politicians, unions, PS, social welfare recipients etc.

You and you ilk have spread your gospel throughout this site however it has had a negative impact as well ,imo. Balance, interesting debate, exchange of views and comment have gone along with the huge numbers that have left this site to be replaced by lies, generalisations, abuse, insult and idiots! All politicians are greedy, self serving idiots, all social welfare recipients are on the take, all unions leaders are corrupt and all ps are leeches with their noses in the trough (in your world anyway).

IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!
You are so full of sh1t so should probably call Dynorod.

if I do repeat myself it is because I'm sick of PS posters on this site - whose salaries I and all other net tax contributors pay - tell me I'm the problem - I'm a greedy capitalist, I made out like a bandit during the boom, I'm not paying enough tax - it gets really old fast being told that again and again when clearly that's only part of the solution.

There is a genuine lack of awareness of the root cause of the crisis we're in, which limits people in imagining the solution - I'd like to change that - genuinely.

Also - and it may surprise you to learn - a big chunk of my families income comes from the public sector and I and my partner would be happy to loose 25 - 40% of that income if it was part of a national and fair reduction of the public sector cost base...I know what I'm talking about and prepared to put my money - literally - where my mouth is, unlike the mealy mouth serial denial merchants who will flock to "like" you post.
 

Ribeye

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
Global debt $350 trillion

Global wealth held as debt €350 trillion.



This is a distribution issue only when you look at it on a global level.

Do a thought experiment. What if the entire €350 trillion debt was defaulted on tomorrow, what would be the next effect on global net financial wealth?


The answer is none.

What would be the ration of global debt to GDP after the default - 0%
$350 trillion, where ye gettin that from?

And I'm not sure what point you are tryin to make,

The debt will be defaulted on, coz it cannot be repaid,

Are you saying that the default will have no impact on people's lives?
 

TheWexfordInn

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
12,144
IMO you have an agenda of your own, that is to create a divide and conquer, same as IBEC, ISME, IN&M, Newstalk and Mail. You constantly repeat the same old anti ps rant over and over again, thread followed by hate filled thread while your lackies lap it up!

well done, you have contributed in no small way to ruining this site!
Sorry but I'm afraid shooting the messenger doesn't fix the problem. There is insufficient money to pay for current Government spending. You don't appear to have addressed this issue in your long winded response to the OP where you have successfully managed to write fifteen or so lines while saying absolutely nothing relevant whatsoever.
 

Sucker Punch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
1,561
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.

Ironic that you accuse others of ignorance yet are blissfully unaware that the country has returned to primary budgetary surplus (the reason taxes are increasing and more cuts on they way is because you are pay the interest on the national debt!). The underwriting of the bank guarantee saw Ireland's Debt:GDP go from 25% in 2007 to circa 120% GDP today. The baking bailout has been put at approximately 40% of GDP all told, so that means the ballpark 40% of all cuts and taxes are as a direct result of the banking meltdown.

This sum, had it not been poured down the drain, would have lessened the need for a sharp deflationary austerity program which has seen domestic demand fall off the cliff.

There were certainly faults in the narrow taxation base of the economy prior to the banking collapse, however the ramification of the bust is symptomatic of banking and monetary policy which were all but outsourced from domestic policy making.
 

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,254
You are so full of sh1t so should probably call Dynorod.

if I do repeat myself it is because I'm sick of PS posters on this site - whose salaries I and all other net tax contributors pay - tell me I'm the problem - I'm a greedy capitalist, I made out like a bandit during the boom, I'm not paying enough tax - it gets really old fast being told that again and again when clearly that's only part of the solution.

There is a genuine lack of awareness of the root cause of the crisis we're in, which limits people in imagining the solution - I'd like to change that - genuinely.

Also - and it may surprise you to learn - a big chunk of my families income comes from the public sector and I and my partner would be happy to loose 25 - 40% of that income if it was part of a national and fair reduction of the public sector cost base...I know what I'm talking about and prepared to put my money - literally - where my mouth is, unlike the mealy mouth serial denial merchants who will flock to "like" you post.
Ha ha ha!
 

chef35

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
607
One thing that strikes me about the posts of many members of p.ie and in general conversation with colleagues, family and friends is that many people seem to believe that our financial deficit is solely due to the banking crisis and the guarantee, and that if it hadn't been for those "greedy capitalist bankers" we'd be fine.

There are two huge flaws in this logic that people seem unable or unwilling to grasp:
  1. that the deficit is largely due to the excessive day-to-day cost of running the state - public representatives, public servants, health, education and social welfare
  2. that there were many arms of the public sector involved in the boom to burst cycle, many of whom were well paid to directly oversee a successful economy (Central Bank of Ireland and Financial Regulator) and others indirectly (Dept. of Finance) - they failed miserably at this job by allowing the bankers do what bankers were always going to do

The adage "the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one" comes to mind. In many peoples minds, and particularly those in the public sector or are dependent on the state in some way, this is a private sector problem and needs to be solved by the private sector by working harder, paying more tax and getting back to a position where there is sufficient state revenue to get back to the way it was.

Unless we're all on the same page - that this is as much a public sector problem as it is a private sector problem - and we all realise that the solution needs to be found on both sides - reduce public sector costs and increase "user pays" taxes like VAT, health, education, etc. we're never going to resolve the issue.

The big obstacle in this "come to Jeebus moment" however, is probably the fact that our leaders - those elected to represent us and the senior officials in their departments - have a lot to loose by being open about this. They will loose face/status by openly admitting that, in a nutshell, they phucked up, and will lose serious income if/when the cost side is addressed and we re-baseline top salaries in the public administration to the scale of the economy and against genuine bench-marks. These leaders are happy to enable the ignorance, and that has to be their greatest failing.
 
Top