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Is Ireland another Zambia?


clearmurk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
3,019
Just happened to catch an interesting documentary on BBC4 tv last night: Why Poverty - Stealing Africa

BBC iPlayer - Why Poverty?: Stealing Africa

A couple of points struck home

- Zambia appears to have been "required" to sell off its natural resources (in this case copper ore) to meet IMF and other creditor requirements - just like Ireland
- Transfer pricing mechanisms in use by a large multi-national appear to have been used to transfer significant mining wealth out of the country with little return to the state or citizens - just like Ireland
- An argument is made that if Zambia didn't accept industry terms, then the industry would go elsewhere - just like Ireland.

Is this where we are going? Or have we already got there?
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,041
Just happened to catch an interesting documentary on BBC4 tv last night: Why Poverty - Stealing Africa

BBC iPlayer - Why Poverty?: Stealing Africa

A couple of points struck home

- Zambia appears to have been "required" to sell off its natural resources (in this case copper ore) to meet IMF and other creditor requirements - just like Ireland
- Transfer pricing mechanisms in use by a large multi-national appear to have been used to transfer significant mining wealth out of the country with little return to the state or citizens - just like Ireland
- An argument is made that if Zambia didn't accept industry terms, then the industry would go elsewhere - just like Ireland.

Is this where we are going? Or have we already got there?
No Ireland is not like Zambia. No we haven't sold off our resources. No industry doesn't set the terms our government does. Yes if you borrow money you do so on the borrowers terms. Yes if you don't like the terms cut your cloth to suit your measure. And furthermore it was the Socialists who bankrupted Zambia and ended up asking the IMF for help
 
G

Gimpanzee

Just happened to catch an interesting documentary on BBC4 tv last night: Why Poverty - Stealing Africa

BBC iPlayer - Why Poverty?: Stealing Africa

A couple of points struck home

- Zambia appears to have been "required" to sell off its natural resources (in this case copper ore) to meet IMF and other creditor requirements - just like Ireland
- Transfer pricing mechanisms in use by a large multi-national appear to have been used to transfer significant mining wealth out of the country with little return to the state or citizens - just like Ireland
- An argument is made that if Zambia didn't accept industry terms, then the industry would go elsewhere - just like Ireland.

Is this where we are going? Or have we already got there?
You're the type of person that listens to a song and thinks 'OMG it is so totally about me and that chick that won't go near me', aren't you?
 

clearmurk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
3,019
No Ireland is not like Zambia. No we haven't sold off our resources.
Yet

No industry doesn't set the terms our government does.
So industry has no say on taxation regimes here? - not a sustainable position. Was it not a few months ago, for example, that the IFSC was found to have "special" sole access to government regarding EU policy in the area?
 

Druidess

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Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Messages
2,593
Perhaps in terms of our citizens general apathy, we are a little like Zambia.

Zambia has a high rate of HIV, I am very sure this has contributed to the fact that today it is an underperforming dependent nation.
 

Asparagus

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Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
4,882
Perhaps in terms of our citizens general apathy, we are a little like Zambia.

Zambia has a high rate of HIV, I am very sure this has contributed to the fact that today it is an underperforming dependent nation.
Ireland has the HSE which kills more than AIDS.

Folks our government don't just accept the punitive austerity - the actively seek it. They want so much to prove their worth that they will take more pain than is actually required.

We are in an abusive relationship.
 

clearmurk

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
3,019
Perhaps in terms of our citizens general apathy, we are a little like Zambia.

Zambia has a high rate of HIV, I am very sure this has contributed to the fact that today it is an underperforming dependent nation.
That is quite possible.

However, if the principal resources available to a society are being syphoned off, then this directly affects the capacity of the society to function. This means the effectiveness of health system, education system, social supports etc.

We are seeing similar here through the budgetary impact of austerity, though of course the quantum of impact may be substantially different.
 

carruthers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
4,197
No Ireland is not like Zambia. No we haven't sold off our resources. No industry doesn't set the terms our government does. Yes if you borrow money you do so on the borrowers terms. Yes if you don't like the terms cut your cloth to suit your measure. And furthermore it was the Socialists who bankrupted Zambia and ended up asking the IMF for help
Erm, wasn't Bertie a socialist who may or may not have bankrupted the country? Did he not then become chairman of some large Forestry company? I think the sale of Coillte's reserves is a given? Perhaps we are closer to Zambia than we'd care to admit?
 

southwestkerry

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Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
4,230
I cant quiet compare ourselves with Zambia. Like I mean look at the number off des res's all over the place. Not to mention all those shiny jeeps doing the 'scoool' rounds.
SWK
PS big business is needed to exploit our resources so we cant be too cranky their.
 

Taxi Driver

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
4,296
Just happened to catch an interesting documentary on BBC4 tv last night: Why Poverty - Stealing Africa

BBC iPlayer - Why Poverty?: Stealing Africa

A couple of points struck home

- Zambia appears to have been "required" to sell off its natural resources (in this case copper ore) to meet IMF and other creditor requirements - just like Ireland
- Transfer pricing mechanisms in use by a large multi-national appear to have been used to transfer significant mining wealth out of the country with little return to the state or citizens - just like Ireland
- An argument is made that if Zambia didn't accept industry terms, then the industry would go elsewhere - just like Ireland.

Is this where we are going? Or have we already got there?
What natural resources has Ireland sold?
What mining wealth has been transferred out of Ireland by MNCs?
What "industry terms" were imposed on Ireland?
 

Asparagus

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
4,882
What natural resources has Ireland sold?
What mining wealth has been transferred out of Ireland by MNCs?
What "industry terms" were imposed on Ireland?
Gas / Shell / Rossport / Gave away.

Oil / Drilling / Licence / cheap

Youth / education / emigration
 

southwestkerry

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
4,230
While I think neutron has a point with his photo, I also think the doom-mongering can be a bit at the superficial side.
 
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