Is Ireland obligated and entitled to hold a referendum on the terms of Britain's exit from the EU ?

cyberianpan

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The Brexit deal essentially will be between the EU and the UK

Under the Lisbon Treaty , Ireland has signed up to qualified majority voting on this matter...or has it ?

As I have argued before, our method of implementing the Crotty Judgement is a mess:
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/187920-current-method-implementing-crotty-judgement-makes-mess-bunreacht.html

Now Ireland and the UK already have an international treaty via the 1948/49 settlement:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

This allows for common travel and a whole host of other rights. Interestingly of course there was no referendum on this

However there was a GFA referendum

Unless the bilateral relations of the UK and Ireland remain wholly unaltered by the Brexit deal, then we will indeed need a referendum

I don't think it is likely that "no change" to UK/Ireland relations will be achieved

This will be complicated by the varying/shifting sentiment in NI, Scotland and the UK as a whole

Cyp
 


The Field Marshal

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‘‘Tis far from over.

The Elephant in the room is the Irish border question.
 

The Field Marshal

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No - the EU is taking over
They can try.
Britain did and failed.
What makes you think a bunch of continental weirdos will succeed?
 

stopdoingstuff

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Brexit raped me and called me a ************************************.
 

cricket

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I raised this question a long time ago here. If a UK/EU deal is done and, apart from the number of EU members changing, any of the previous treaties on which we had a referendum has to be changed, I think a case could be made that we have to have a referendum here.
Interesting times ahead ?
 

recedite

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My understanding of it is that by signing up to various earlier EU treaties including Nice and Lisbon, we signed away (or pooled) a lot of our national sovereignty. And we also agreed that EU law trumps Irish law, including the Irish constitution. There is nothing a la carte about any of this. The only way we could get out of all these obligations (and benefits) is via the nuclear option; a referendum to leave the EU as the UK chose to do.

So when there is a historic bilateral agreement with the UK, such as the CTA, we were only allowed to keep that because it was a legacy agreement and it did not conflict with any general EU policy (the UK became an EU member at the same time). Not that the EEC had any notions of a common foreign policy at the time anyway.

So the situation now is that Brussels will negotiate a new external agreement with the UK for when it leaves. We will have no choice but to abide by whatever agreement they come to. It will require some sort of EU external border being imposed between the 26 and the 6 counties. By then the EU will have a Border Force properly set up, and they will come in to monitor the southern side. The UK are already recruiting for their own Border Force to monitor the northern side.
We joined PESCO a few months ago on the quiet, which means another PESCO military can come onto our territory without explicit permission. For example, a detachment of French troops could in theory decide to drive onto a ferry to Rosslare and then drive up to Dundalk to have a sniff around. They could not go into Newry though. But that's an unlikely scenario, being bad political optics.

The main point is, its won't be so much our border in future as the EU's border.

We agreed to all this stuff either in referendums and/or via Dail votes. So there is no point complaining afterwards.
 

gleeful

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I doubt there is a constitutional case for a referendum, but i can see a challenge going to court.
 

Gin Soaked

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So we hold a referendum and say no to the deal.

Does our one sided rejection of breaking an international treaty mean anything?

Is it analogous to a breach of contract? Have a strop by all means but how and who enforces and vindicates our rights?

BTW, I consider Brexit to be amoral and wrong. Even if it is deemed illegal, so what. How do we enforce a stop..?
 

recedite

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So we hold a referendum and say no to the deal.

Does our one sided rejection of breaking an international treaty mean anything?

Is it analogous to a breach of contract? Have a strop by all means but how and who enforces and vindicates our rights?

BTW, I consider Brexit to be amoral and wrong. Even if it is deemed illegal, so what. How do we enforce a stop..?
The only way to get back national sovereignty is to leave the EU. Members can't pick and choose which directives they want to adopt. That would not have much support in Ireland.

The more sneaky way to eliminate the border is to entice NI to leave the UK and join ROI, by making sure NI suffers after Brexit. SF are probably working on that right now. Certainly they are in no hurry to restore a working NI assembly after collapsing the last one.
 

cyberianpan

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I am not saying we get to vote on the Brexit deal itself

I am saying we get to vote on any change to bilateral relations between ourselves and the UK

And... I don't see a Brexit deal that does not have such changes

CyP
 

Fats_Portnoy

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The Brexit deal essentially will be between the EU and the UK

Under the Lisbon Treaty , Ireland has signed up to qualified majority voting on this matter...or has it ?

As I have argued before, our method of implementing the Crotty Judgement is a mess:
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/187920-current-method-implementing-crotty-judgement-makes-mess-bunreacht.html

Now Ireland and the UK already have an international treaty via the 1948/49 settlement:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

This allows for common travel and a whole host of other rights. Interestingly of course there was no referendum on this

However there was a GFA referendum

Unless the bilateral relations of the UK and Ireland remain wholly unaltered by the Brexit deal, then we will indeed need a referendum

I don't think it is likely that "no change" to UK/Ireland relations will be achieved

This will be complicated by the varying/shifting sentiment in NI, Scotland and the UK as a whole

Cyp
If the withdrawal agreement only refers to UK-EU relations within the scope of the current EU as updated by the Treaty of Lisbon then it would not require a new referendum.
 

Fats_Portnoy

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I am not saying we get to vote on the Brexit deal itself

I am saying we get to vote on any change to bilateral relations between ourselves and the UK

And... I don't see a Brexit deal that does not have such changes

CyP
Given that nobody would be so bonkers as to tear up the Good Friday Agreement its a moot point.
 

cyberianpan

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If the withdrawal agreement only refers to UK-EU relations within the scope of the current EU as updated by the Treaty of Lisbon then it would not require a new referendum.
If the deal alters our bilateral relations, particularly if it reduces suff under the 1948/49 settlement or GFA, then it needs referendum

Cyp
 

recedite

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I am not saying we get to vote on the Brexit deal itself

I am saying we get to vote on any change to bilateral relations between ourselves and the UK
We are not allowed to subvert an EU treaty by negotiating our own bilateral treaties with countries outside the EU.

Your argument is that our common EU membership (UK and Ireland) gives us freedom of movement to the UK, but if that right is taken away we can default back to the CTA which previously bestowed us the same rights.
But unfortunately the CTA will be rendered obsolete by the Withdrawal Agreement between EU (acting on our behalf) and the UK, and we won't be allowed to make any more CTA's, acting on our own initiative, unless we leave the EU.
 


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