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Is Ireland really a kleptocracy?


Disillusioned democrat

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Joined
Mar 16, 2010
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15,731
Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

(Thanks to Wikipedia)

Over the past years posting on p.ie I've seen the term kleptocracy used quite a few times but really never paid attention to it. In recent months, however, as the government have been more barefaced in imposing cuts on services and it's outgoings it has continued to borrow €13bn this year to maintain its income.

Last evening I realised that the government earns more from my work than I do - 10% more - as it takes 55% of the cost of employing me (albeit including employers PRSI), and from the remaining 45% I pay VAT, DIRT, Duty, Excise, VRT, Household Charge and probably a few more I can't recall. PS posters immediately rallied to discredit my calculation, simply because employers PRSI isn't a tax I pay, but deliberately missed the point.

I guess I'm just positing that maybe the government isn't as incompetent as we've assumed they are, but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.
 


Rural

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
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27,908
Yes, indeed they are that word what you said, I can think of a few other words too, beginning with the word "shower ........".
 

Analyzer

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Feb 14, 2011
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46,189
Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

(Thanks to Wikipedia)

Over the past years posting on p.ie I've seen the term kleptocracy used quite a few times but really never paid attention to it. In recent months, however, as the government have been more barefaced in imposing cuts on services and it's outgoings it has continued to borrow €13bn this year to maintain its income.

Last evening I realised that the government earns more from my work than I do - 10% more - as it takes 55% of the cost of employing me (albeit including employers PRSI), and from the remaining 45% I pay VAT, DIRT, Duty, Excise, VRT, Household Charge and probably a few more I can't recall. PS posters immediately rallied to discredit my calculation, simply because employers PRSI isn't a tax I pay, but deliberately missed the point.

I guess I'm just positing that maybe the government isn't as incompetent as we've assumed they are, but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.
+1.

Let's not forget Irish defamation Law, and how long it took the Irish media to discuss/investigate CJH and the maFFia.
 

Rural

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
27,908
+1.

Let's not forget Irish defamation Law, and how long it took the Irish media to discuss/investigate CJH and the maFFia.
Still waiting for the results of the Mahon Report, which was supposed to be out three years ago.:rolleyes:
 

ruserious

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Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,621
Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

(Thanks to Wikipedia)

Over the past years posting on p.ie I've seen the term kleptocracy used quite a few times but really never paid attention to it. In recent months, however, as the government have been more barefaced in imposing cuts on services and it's outgoings it has continued to borrow €13bn this year to maintain its income.

Last evening I realised that the government earns more from my work than I do - 10% more - as it takes 55% of the cost of employing me (albeit including employers PRSI), and from the remaining 45% I pay VAT, DIRT, Duty, Excise, VRT, Household Charge and probably a few more I can't recall. PS posters immediately rallied to discredit my calculation, simply because employers PRSI isn't a tax I pay, but deliberately missed the point.

I guess I'm just positing that maybe the government isn't as incompetent as we've assumed they are, but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.
The Irish trait of subserviance certainly is challened into government. I'm not sure that is kleptocracy though...
 

Con Gallagher

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Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
2,413
Look at the levels of taxes paid.
Look at levels of money borrowed to top up government expenditure.

Then review the quality and breadth of public service you and your community receive eg health system, cuts to policing, education standards (eg the low number who can speak Irish after 14 years and a foreign language after 6) etc

Then look at amount on public pay and pensions (including politicians and senior civil servants), quangos (and who's on them), consultants, legal bills to big six solicitors, amount of discretionary funding diverted to politicians local patches, export credit insurance, per job return of IDA grants, etc etc

Kleptocracy might be a bit far, but democratic/accountability deficit might be more accurate.
 

Ribeye

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,304
Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

(Thanks to Wikipedia)

Over the past years posting on p.ie I've seen the term kleptocracy used quite a few times but really never paid attention to it. In recent months, however, as the government have been more barefaced in imposing cuts on services and it's outgoings it has continued to borrow €13bn this year to maintain its income.

Last evening I realised that the government earns more from my work than I do - 10% more - as it takes 55% of the cost of employing me (albeit including employers PRSI), and from the remaining 45% I pay VAT, DIRT, Duty, Excise, VRT, Household Charge and probably a few more I can't recall. PS posters immediately rallied to discredit my calculation, simply because employers PRSI isn't a tax I pay, but deliberately missed the point.

I guess I'm just positing that maybe the government isn't as incompetent as we've assumed they are, but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.
An excellent OP, one correction though, you said the govt "earns" more of your money than you do, that's untrue, they "earn" nothing, "steal" is what they do,

And to answer the question,

Well, does Mr Ed sh1t himself when he sees Larry Goodman coming?

:)
 

Rural

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
27,908
An excellent OP, one correction though, you said the govt "earns" more of your money than you do, that's untrue, they "earn" nothing, "steal" is what they do,

And to answer the question,

Well, does Mr Ed sh1t himself when he sees Larry Goodman coming?

:)
Mr. Ed is in a unique position for a horse, he can tell Larry to eff off!!
 

Ribeye

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,304
An interesting way of looking at it is,

You will be working until about the end of July before you are allowed to keep any of your earnings!

and for fckn what exactly?
 

Spanner Island

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Feb 22, 2011
Messages
24,199
Over the last couple of years I've become increasingly reluctant to accept the eFFing traitors were 'incompetent' because incompetence in some way excuses or at least diminishes the significant contribution they made to what happened.

Another reason I'm increasingly reluctant to accept it is by looking at how competent they were at lining their own pockets and ensuring they were more than comfortable, both in employment as well as post retirement.

In fact it could be argued they were world beaters in this respect, because by the time the crash occurred they were the highest paid politicians in the world.

So for me the eFFing traitors weren't actually incompetent when it came to the jobs they were supposed to be doing in the national interest.

Nah... for me they were criminally negligent and/or simply self serving crooks... and as such, they should all be pursued and prosecuted relentlessly so that they are not allowed to continue their retirements in the style to which they've become accustomed and ensured would be funded by us.

Ireland a kleptocracy?

Damn f***ing right it is, and the body politic is one of the most serious and relentless offenders.
 
R

Ramps

...but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.
Sorry, but you're straying in to grassy knoll territory.
 

eyelight

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
8,296
A kleptoctacy since the foundation of the state.
A state founded by terrorists and criminals, and run by their children and grandchildren, knows no better.
 

Protestant/Catholic=Irish

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Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
1,642
An excellent OP, one correction though, you said the govt "earns" more of your money than you do, that's untrue, they "earn" nothing, "steal" is what they do,

And to answer the question,

Well, does Mr Ed sh1t himself when he sees Larry Goodman coming?

:)
To paraphrase Franklin D. Roosevelt, "taxes are payment for living in an organised society".
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

(Thanks to Wikipedia)

Over the past years posting on p.ie I've seen the term kleptocracy used quite a few times but really never paid attention to it. In recent months, however, as the government have been more barefaced in imposing cuts on services and it's outgoings it has continued to borrow €13bn this year to maintain its income.

Last evening I realised that the government earns more from my work than I do - 10% more - as it takes 55% of the cost of employing me (albeit including employers PRSI), and from the remaining 45% I pay VAT, DIRT, Duty, Excise, VRT, Household Charge and probably a few more I can't recall. PS posters immediately rallied to discredit my calculation, simply because employers PRSI isn't a tax I pay, but deliberately missed the point.

I guess I'm just positing that maybe the government isn't as incompetent as we've assumed they are, but maybe this is a genuine case of a kleptocracy where the people of the country are actually and deliberately being fleeced to serve the "inner circle" of politicians, senior civil servants and anyone they allow into their tents.

A fine post. Just one correction. In 2012 the government borrowed over €24 billion.
 

Ribeye

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,304
To paraphrase Franklin D. Roosevelt, "taxes are payment for living in an organised society".
Did he indeed? Well, I suppose he would say that, wouldn't he?

Not only is he wrong in general terms, but as an American, you would think he should know that the role of the Federal Govt is supposed to be to simply defend Liberty, as per the Dec of Ind and the Constitution,

It ain't your job to organise society Teddy, so back off!
 

eoghanacht

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Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,303
A kleptoctacy since the foundation of the state.
A state founded by terrorists and criminals, and run by their children and grandchildren, knows no better.
Give over ye half wit. Your beloved British empire was founded on piracy and slavery and it's monarchy descended from glorified war lords.
 

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