Is it now incumbent on the Irish Government to create a White Paper on Irish Unity?

ruserious

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Of course we do - why wouldn't we?
The important point of this thread is that Unionists need to know what to expect when a UI comes about
They are not exactly going to be massacred like as if the Arabs took over Israel (a debate for another thread)
But they quite rightly would want clarity on the important issues for them
The last thing we want it to present them with another Brexit type referendum when they don't know what they are voting for
Precisely.
The South has come on leaps and bounds in recent decades. We wouldn't want Unionits thinking they would be subject to some sort of Catholic Theocratic State.
 


jmcc

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Having a plan in place in the event of a border poll as laid down by the GFA does not breach the GFA. The White Paper I advocate would be how a United Ireland would work after such a border poll.
Having plans is always good even if those plans don't have to be used. The problem with Brexit and the UK position is that things could unravel quickly and NI's position could be the victim of internal Tory party squabbling.
 

statsman

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The problem with that is both referenda have to be held on the same day, as the GFA referenda were.
That's not actually stated in the GFA. A border poll is purely to ascertain the wishes of the people of the North.
 

GDPR

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Precisely.
The South has come on leaps and bounds in recent decades. We wouldn't want Unionits thinking they would be subject to some sort of Catholic Theocratic State.
Die-hards, mdeah, are horrified that you voted to legalise SSM and abortion AOD up to 12 weeks.

How much more do you want to do to antagonise your pet backwoodsmen?
 

GDPR

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That's not actually stated in the GFA. A border poll is purely to ascertain the wishes of the people of the North.
Ironically or not, the Treaty says the UK will accept that, bobs your uncle, fannys your aunt. No need for a Referendum in GB at all.
 

Carlos Danger

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What is the alternative? Vote for unification without a proper public consultation?
This won't be a quick process.

Placing a monetary value on people will be a tricky but necessary part of that process.
 
D

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Precisely.
The South has come on leaps and bounds in recent decades. We wouldn't want Unionits thinking they would be subject to some sort of Catholic Theocratic State.
NI has some on in even greater leaps and bounds in the same period though
Gone are the days of gerrymandering, the b-specials and a protestant state for a protestant people - ultimatey led by the cleric Ian Paisley
We in the South have always been decades ahead of Unionists trogs
Largely due to our Catholic open and welcoming culture
 

recedite

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I see two main problems with this.
1. Its all based on what might happen after a Yes vote to a reunification border poll.
There is nothing about what might be said or done in advance to make reunification a more attractive proposition.

2. It assumes a takeover of NI by RoI.
If we compare this issue to a commercial deal, is it a hostile takeover or an amalgamation? Because the outcome of any poll would depend on how people perceived it.
The document is overly reliant on a comparison with German reunification. It dwells at length about how GDR was seamlessly incorporated into the EU.
Fine so far, because GDR citizens actually wanted that, as do the majority of northern unionists. But for GDR that had followed the collapse of communism. Are we really seeing the collapse of unionism? I don't think so.
The document says...
The fact that the reunification process had been triggered by recourse to Article 23 BL meant
that the constitution of the FRG was to be the constitution of the united country, with only minor modifications to take account of the changed circumstances. No review process took place....

As far as ordinary laws were concerned, the decision was taken to extend the FRG legislation to the territories of the former GDR.This decision has been lamented many times. On the whole, however, it has proven useful to unify the legal order of the united Germany according to the standards set in the west of the country.
So although the new united Germany was technically neither the GDR nor the FRG, in effect it was really a takeover by the FRG with the consent of the population in the east.
Can this work in Ireland? I don't think so, not peacefully anyway.

What's needed then is for RoI to start making proposals about what sort of New Ireland we are talking about. What changes if any, are proposed for the constitution, flag, school system, police force(s) government.
IMO it should be seen as an opportunity to propose Ireland version 2.0. Get rid of all the crap from the first version, but keep what is good about it. Some other things which were formerly mandatory (eg compulsory Irish language all through the school years) should be made optional instead.
 

Carlos Danger

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Because the Republic will want a rather large dowry to take NI off their hands, while the UK would like it to be significantly smaller.

Similar to Brexit's divorce bill, except there are kids involved.
 

GDPR

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I see two main problems with this.
1. Its all based on what might happen after a Yes vote to a reunification border poll.
There is nothing about what might be said or done in advance to make reunification a more attractive proposition.

2. It assumes a takeover of NI by RoI.
If we compare this issue to a commercial deal, is it a hostile takeover or an amalgamation? Because the outcome of any poll would depend on how people perceived it.
The document is overly reliant on a comparison with German reunification. It dwells at length about how GDR was seamlessly incorporated into the EU.
Fine so far, because GDR citizens actually wanted that, as do the majority of northern unionists. But for GDR that had followed the collapse of communism. Are we really seeing the collapse of unionism? I don't think so.
The document says...
So although the new united Germany was technically neither the GDR nor the FRG, in effect it was really a takeover by the FRG with the consent of the population in the east.
Can this work in Ireland? I don't think so, not peacefully anyway.

What's needed then is for RoI to start making proposals about what sort of New Ireland we are talking about. What changes if any, are proposed for the constitution, flag, school system, police force(s) government.
IMO it should be seen as an opportunity to propose Ireland version 2.0. Get rid of all the crap from the first version, but keep what is good about it. Some other things which were formerly mandatory (eg compulsory Irish language all through the school years) should be made optional instead.
The GFA is not an excuse for revamping institutions in the Republic or the UK. If a Border Poll delivers a UI, it wont be predicated on tweaking the Leaving Cert. Rolling out papers on how if NI votes Yes, AGS will be over-hauled is meaningless.

Most Northerners want to remain in the EU. Start from there.
 

arsenal

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Surely the south would not have to hold a ref on the same day as a ref would only be needed in the south subsequently if the north voted to leave the UK.

The Irish govt and parties should only begin to put any sort of report or possibilities together when the border poll has been agreed between the main parties in NI and the UK govt.

If this were to happen I would like to see it go something like this.
1. April 2022 UK govt announce preparations for border poll in 24 months.
2. Irish govt and Irish civic and political society produce recommendations for new Ireland 6 months prior to border poll. Unionists can attend and put forward various proposals and ideas at this forum if they wish, but it would be reassembled in the case of a successful poll.
3.UK and Irish govt agree/negotiate on the key issues needed to be resolved in case of a successful poll,re public jobs,pensions and NI amount of UK debt etc.
This "contract" is presented and signed by both govts, and would only come into effect if both parts of Ireland pass the necessary referendums.
4.An agreed outline with regards to when NI would pass over sovereignty from UK to Irish govt etc also agreed and announced beforehand.
 

JimmyFoley

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No matter what side of the political debate you find yourself on with regards to Irish Unity; it is pretty obvious that the possibility of it happening are now more real than just a few short years ago.

Shifting demographics, Brexit and BBC Poll Results are just some of the reasons why Irish Unity has become a topical subject outside of traditional Northern Nationalist vox pop magazines.

A recent BBC poll found 42% of respondents would vote for unification.

Former First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, quite rightly came out to say that even if a border poll passed with the smallest of margins, there are no plans in place to bring it to a reality.
- He is quite right.

I think Varadkar visiting the Orange Museum is a good start. Unionists will be a cherished community within a United Ireland and it is a good thing to see the Irish government extend an olive branch.

But such public displays of friendship will not deliver a successful United Ireland.

For every reason above; I believe it is time that the Irish government start to recognise their role in securing a United Ireland as per the provisions of Bunreacht.


As a United Ireland is coming closer to being brought about by democratic means, it is now incumbent on the Irish government to lay the ground work, as it were.

This may include setting up a Department or assigning a Minister for Unification.
At the very least, it should include a detailed and all encompassing white paper setting out how it will be delivered in the event of a Yes to unity vote.

Failure to take aforementioned steps under the present climate will render claims to be a "United Ireland party" spurious.


-rus.
Sure didn't a poll held about 3 weeks ago show that only about 1 in 5 in NI would vote for a UI...
 

Dame_Enda

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Look its a possibility that a UI will happen in the future and it would be prudent to have a plan for it just in case. A head in the sand approach would be a mistake. On the other hand now is not the right time and would only fuel Loyalist paranoia. Get the Citizens Assembly to debate a consensus on what form of UI would be offered to NI if a future referendum comes about.

We tried the head in the sand approach before the property crash when people were asked why they didnt "commit suicide" if they raised concerns the crash was coming. Maybe its a peculiarly Irish trait I dont know but the definition of madness is repeating the same action and expecting a different result.
 

recedite

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If a Border Poll delivers a UI, it wont be predicated on tweaking the Leaving Cert. Rolling out papers on how if NI votes Yes, AGS will be over-hauled is meaningless.
Its far from meaningless, its about the kind of future they would be voting for, and whether they want it.
Most Northerners want to remain in the EU. Start from there.
Indeed that is a good start. But a good start does not guarantee a winning outcome.
 

GDPR

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Look its a possibility that a UI will happen in the future and it would be prudent to have a plan for it just in case. A head in the sand approach would be a mistake. On the other hand now is not the right time and would only fuel Loyalist paranoia. Get the Citizens Assembly to debate a consensus on what form of UI would be offered to NI if a future referendum comes about.
Oh and ignore Northerners?

But then what Northerners would you include?

Think about it.
 

Dame_Enda

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Oh and ignore Northerners?

But then what Northerners would you include?

Think about it.
Well considering Northerners are entitled to Citizenship we should include them too to some degree but I would point out that realistically speaking, we would also need a consensus in the South to get it passed in a 26 county referendum as per the GFA.
 

GDPR

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Well considering Northerners are entitled to Citizenship we should include them too to some degree but I would point out that realistically speaking, we would also need a consensus in the South to get it passed in a 26 county referendum as per the GFA.
This is going to come as a shock to you, Enda, I know, but if NI voted for reunification, the subsequent Irish Referendum to ratify that vote would be a done deal.
 

recedite

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Surely the south would not have to hold a ref on the same day as a ref would only be needed in the south subsequently if the north voted to leave the UK.

The Irish govt and parties should only begin to put any sort of report or possibilities together when the border poll has been agreed between the main parties in NI and the UK govt.

If this were to happen I would like to see it go something like this.
1. April 2022 UK govt announce preparations for border poll in 24 months.
2. Irish govt and Irish civic and political society produce recommendations for new Ireland 6 months prior to border poll. Unionists can attend and put forward various proposals and ideas at this forum if they wish, but it would be reassembled in the case of a successful poll.
3.UK and Irish govt agree/negotiate on the key issues needed to be resolved in case of a successful poll,re public jobs,pensions and NI amount of UK debt etc.
This "contract" is presented and signed by both govts, and would only come into effect if both parts of Ireland pass the necessary referendums.
4.An agreed outline with regards to when NI would pass over sovereignty from UK to Irish govt etc also agreed and announced beforehand.
These are good constructive proposals to start with.
 

Dame_Enda

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This is going to come as a shock to you, Enda, I know, but if NI voted for reunification, the subsequent Irish Referendum to ratify that vote would be a done deal.
But its inevitable that the referendum debate would end up going into the constitutional weeds and Irish ministers would be expected to explain what form a UI would take. Learn the lessons of the failed Scottish referendum where the SNP were woefully unprepared to answer those questions.
 


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