Is it time for Reform Catholicism? Mary Mac, St Mary's and Field Marshal the Lord Guthrie

McTell

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When should you leave a club? When the rule-making committee starts making rules you don't like. Or won't change the rules you don't like. Is it time for Reform Catholicism, that could evolve like Reform Judaism?

Contraception was banned for us catholics since 1930 and Castii Connubii, which ".. stressed the sanctity of marriage, prohibited Catholics from using any form of artificial birth control, and reaffirmed the prohibition on abortion. It also explained the authority of Church doctrine on moral matters, and advocated that civil governments follow the lead of the Church in this area."

This was extended by Humanae Vitae in 1968 that prohibited all forms of artificial contraception, and affirmed traditional moral teaching on the sanctity of life. As rules go it was clear enough. The pill had been invented in the 1950s.

Mary Mac was our Prez in a former life. Now she has a professorship at St Mary's university Twickenham, where a fellow professor is former field marshal Charles Guthrie (Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank to you) whose .. "military career saw service with the Welsh Guards and the Special Air Service; he was closely involved in military operations in Northern Ireland and provided advice to the British Government during the Bosnian War and the Kosovo War." This shows that christian tolerance can work, at least between people who are educated and comfortably off.


But should she and millions of other catholics around the world not use the internet and set their own agenda now, after acres of newsprint about humanae vitae since the 1960s, and create a "Reform Catholicism"? I'm not an expert on judaism but obviously Reform Judaism grew legs and is still running.

Or if not, why not?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casti_connubii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae_vitae

https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/latest/st-mary-s-twickenham-professor-endorses-rejection-of-humanae-vitae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Guthrie,_Baron_Guthrie_of_Craigiebank

Field Marshal Guthrie Reports for Duty at St Mary's - Media Centre | News, Events, Photos | St Mary's University, Twickenham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
 


Cruimh

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There is a problem for the Institutional Church, certainly in Europe and America, with Contraception - the laity, by and large, do not accept Humanae vitae. And the Church ignores that so many of their people use contraception. This brings it into disrepute and damages the authority of other Church teaching.

Should the church ignore this? Or purge the ranks of the laity - and a number of clergy who don't support Humanae?

Can they come out and say - we have had a rethink, artificial birth control isn't in itself bad , forget Humanae? Could they come out and say an encyclical was wrong?

Or find a way round it using the Bishop of Orleans suggestion from the 19th century?

Post 231
http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/250956-gay-couple-step-down-catholic-church-role-6.html#post10542980
 

shiel

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The ethic of love of neighbour is the basic ethic of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The fact that it is not always lived up to does not undermine its validity.

Much of media gives more coverage to the precept that arrogance will get you everywhere.

As long as the ethic of love of neighbour is held to be an ideal worth preaching and practicing however imperfectly we should be reasonably happy.

The arrogance will get you everywhere brigade, however, seem to be gaining ground.
 

PBP voter

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Commission_on_Birth_Control

The commission produced a report in 1966, proposing that artificial birth control was not intrinsically evil and that Catholic couples should be allowed to decide for themselves about the methods to be employed.[1][2][4][5] According to the majority report, use of contraceptives should be regarded as an extension of the already accepted cycle method:

The acceptance of a lawful application of the calculated sterile periods of the woman--that the application is legitimate presupposes right motives--makes a separation between the sexual act which is explicitly intended and its reproductive effect which is intentionally excluded. The tradition has always rejected seeking this separation with a contraceptive intention for motives spoiled by egoism and hedonism, and such seeking can never be admitted. The true opposition is not to be sought between some material conformity to the physiological processes of nature and some artificial intervention. For it is natural to man to use his skill in order to put under human control what is given by physical nature. The opposition is really to be sought between one way of acting which is contraceptive and opposed to a prudent and generous fruitfulness, and another way which is, in an ordered relationship to responsible fruitfulness and which has a concern for education and all the essential, human and Christian values.
 

Minority

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By and large the CC ignores it's own rules. Every couple I know who have married in the church have lived together for years before - some even produce a few bambinos before the big day! Nobody I know gives a dam about church teaching but are still happy to use it for weddings, christenings and funerals.
 

talkingshop

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There is a problem for the Institutional Church, certainly in Europe and America, with Contraception - the laity, by and large, do not accept Humanae vitae. And the Church ignores that so many of their people use contraception. This brings it into disrepute and damages the authority of other Church teaching.

Should the church ignore this? Or purge the ranks of the laity - and a number of clergy who don't support Humanae?

Can they come out and say - we have had a rethink, artificial birth control isn't in itself bad , forget Humanae? Could they come out and say an encyclical was wrong?

Or find a way round it using the Bishop of Orleans suggestion from the 19th century?

Post 231
http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/250956-gay-couple-step-down-catholic-church-role-6.html#post10542980
I don't know why the RCC ever backed itself into this corner on contraception, and I agree that it is a problem for them now as so-called Catholics are widely ignoring it. They should be able to extract themselves from this - even to downgrade use of contraception from "gravely evil", or whatever similar phrase they use to "not ideal" or something similar, but recognise e.g. the role of contraception in disease prevention and in reducing what they presumably consider to be a much worse evil, abortion.
 

gerhard dengler

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When should you leave a club? When the rule-making committee starts making rules you don't like. Or won't change the rules you don't like. Is it time for Reform Catholicism, that could evolve like Reform Judaism?

Contraception was banned for us catholics since 1930 and Castii Connubii, which ".. stressed the sanctity of marriage, prohibited Catholics from using any form of artificial birth control, and reaffirmed the prohibition on abortion. It also explained the authority of Church doctrine on moral matters, and advocated that civil governments follow the lead of the Church in this area."

This was extended by Humanae Vitae in 1968 that prohibited all forms of artificial contraception, and affirmed traditional moral teaching on the sanctity of life. As rules go it was clear enough. The pill had been invented in the 1950s.

Mary Mac was our Prez in a former life. Now she has a professorship at St Mary's university Twickenham, where a fellow professor is former field marshal Charles Guthrie (Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank to you) whose .. "military career saw service with the Welsh Guards and the Special Air Service; he was closely involved in military operations in Northern Ireland and provided advice to the British Government during the Bosnian War and the Kosovo War." This shows that christian tolerance can work, at least between people who are educated and comfortably off.


But should she and millions of other catholics around the world not use the internet and set their own agenda now, after acres of newsprint about humanae vitae since the 1960s, and create a "Reform Catholicism"? I'm not an expert on judaism but obviously Reform Judaism grew legs and is still running.

Or if not, why not?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casti_connubii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae_vitae

https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/latest/st-mary-s-twickenham-professor-endorses-rejection-of-humanae-vitae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Guthrie,_Baron_Guthrie_of_Craigiebank

Field Marshal Guthrie Reports for Duty at St Mary's - Media Centre | News, Events, Photos | St Mary's University, Twickenham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
Google tells me that that St.Mary's university is a Catholic university where McAleese is a professor of Irish studies.

If St.Mary's is a Catholic university it should examine the catholic credentials of it's teaching stuff, in order to protect the integrity of the Catholic ethos of it's education.
A Catholic university should not be appointing staff who do not adhere to Catholic ethos.

On the question that you ask.
McAleese should consider founding her own sect.
 

statsman

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In Europe, including Ireland, the RCC is approaching a state of internal conflict. On the one hand, you have the people who use the church as a means of marking life stages via ritual (births, weddings, deaths) but who would be horrified to discover what it is they are supposed to be signing up to. Dogma means nothing to these 'Catholics'.

On the other hand, you have the true believers, and they are becoming a sect, basically. And acceptance of this state of affairs is probably the only way the church can continue to exist with any real meaning, because the life-style people are going to drift away.
 

EoinMag

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In Europe, including Ireland, the RCC is approaching a state of internal conflict. On the one hand, you have the people who use the church as a means of marking life stages via ritual (births, weddings, deaths) but who would be horrified to discover what it is they are supposed to be signing up to. Dogma means nothing to these 'Catholics'.

On the other hand, you have the true believers, and they are becoming a sect, basically. And acceptance of this state of affairs is probably the only way the church can continue to exist with any real meaning, because the life-style people are going to drift away.


I'd say it was time they shoo'd them away, it'd leave more space for TFM and Dengler and the assorted believers to have their belief in the supernatural and have nobody to question the nuttier parts.
 

Cruimh

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In Europe, including Ireland, the RCC is approaching a state of internal conflict. On the one hand, you have the people who use the church as a means of marking life stages via ritual (births, weddings, deaths) but who would be horrified to discover what it is they are supposed to be signing up to. Dogma means nothing to these 'Catholics'.

On the other hand, you have the true believers, and they are becoming a sect, basically. And acceptance of this state of affairs is probably the only way the church can continue to exist with any real meaning, because the life-style people are going to drift away.
Something else to consider - at the end of the 19th century the Church was in crisis - but within the ranks of the clergy. However by and large the laity didn't question. Back then there was a purge and an Oath against Modernism was instituted (1910) - the clergy who wouldn't take it were expelled.
 

Casablanca

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I'd say it was time they shoo'd them away, it'd leave more space for TFM and Dengler and the assorted believers to have their belief in the supernatural and have nobody to question the nuttier parts.
A large portion of the local priests income comes from the births, marriages and deaths end of the business. Financially and to have credibility as a political/social lobby, they need the a la carte numbers. The infrastructure(buildings etc) was designed for a larger following.
 

Cruimh

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"Reform Catholicism"... you mean Protestantism...
So - what should be done about a la carte catholicism and the clergy who turn a blind eye ?

"Cafeteria Catholic" is one of the deadliest insults in the lexicon of people like Ann Widdecombe . It creates an image of liberals hovering over the Roman buffet, filling their plates with wholesome "justice and peace" while turning up their noses at Papal Infallibility and Marian kitsch (and, no doubt secretly supplementing their diet with the contraceptive pill).

But the truth is that, these days, nearly all Roman Catholics are, as Basil Hume put it, "à la carte" rather than "table d'hôte". Even right-wing loyalists, while insisting on fidelity to the Holy See, ignore its naive strictures against capitalism and its opposition to the liberation of Iraq. And many of them also have suspiciously small families.
A la carte Catholics confess - Telegraph

Is ignoring and tolerating the problem in itself not sinful?
 

McTell

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No
...
On the question that you ask.
McAleese should consider founding her own sect.

OK, maybe she should, I'm intrigued why someone like her would spend so much time on "canon law" and working for this college in London beside this former general of the SAS. She obviously likes a lot of the church's ethos; maybe it's the oppressed communal Belfast minority togetherness aspect.

I don't go to mass any more. The church has nice sentiments that are shared by every other religion. Other religions have members whose only involvement is in baptism, marriage and burial. I'm not impressed by the bling and claims to perform magic. I feel that many decent priests are in a sort of prison. The hypocrisy and criminality around some priests over child abuse since 1990 are completely nauseating, but were not the cause of my unbelief. Some of my elderly friends get a lot of comfort from belief and that's great.

Why does she speak out about the canon laws on contraception and being gay, when she must know that the church would rather split in two than change because a woman says they should? She must know about the misogyny.

At the same time her self-description omits her former presidency: "Prof Mary McAleese, Distinguished Professor in Irish Studies at St Mary’s University, Twickenham, London; previously Director of the Institute of Professional Legal Studies, and Pro-Vice Chancellor, Queen’s University, Belfast." Nothing about 14 years in the Aras. Did we stop her pension?

https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/latest/st-mary-s-twickenham-professor-endorses-rejection-of-humanae-vitae

Eventually the church will change and most of us won't notice.
 

Eddie C

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Surely the fact is that most, a huge majority since Humane Vitae in '68 ignored this ruling should be considered. McAleese is now along with a group of similarly-minded folk campaigning for the Vatican to relax this rule. Sure most ignore it.
 

Eoin Coir

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Majority on commission were on for allowing artificial contraception, but tortured Paul V1 ignored it. This was the first breach in Catholic teaching- the faithful could ignore it,stay withing the Church and it opened the flood gates. Anyone recall the "living in sin" awful mantra. Now good catholic couples are in 2nd relationships, and no one bats an eyelid.
 

benroe

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Is it time for Reform Catholicism?

Why bother, if its not right , then get rid of it.
 


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