Is there a JIHAD for Jerusalem, and what are the implications of that?

roc_

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It was indeed "striking" that in the recent UN vote on resolution GA/11995 that in addition to the 57 OIC countries, another 71 countries also came out in support of the OIC. (not in a good way "striking" I hasten to add.)

Let's remind ourselves about what is the significance of Jerusalem - whether it is about ensuring the best interests of ordinary Palestinians are upheld... or something else...


Recall Arafat speaking in 1993 directly after he signed the Oslo accords: (link)


"... The Jihad will continue and Jersualem is not for the Palestinian People. It is for all the Muslim Uma, all the Muslim Uma. You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me.

(Verse from the Koran in Arabic) And we saved him (Abraham) and Lot, and we brought him to the land which is blessed for ever...

And here we are, I came and I have to speak frankly. I can't do it alone, without the support of the Islamic Uma, I can't do it alone. And what to say like the Jews, go and you will have to fight alone. No! You have to come, and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem your first shrine..."


Perhaps there are some on here who don't grasp the concept of "Jihad". - So let me quote an early fatwa from Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran who I think helped explain it pretty well in this context:


"... Jihad means the conquest of all non-Muslim territories. Such a war may well be declared after the formation of an Islamic government worthy of that name, at the direction of the Imam or under his orders. It will then be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Qur’anic law in power from one end of the earth to the other..."


Let's also remind ourselves about what happened to East Jerusalem when it was under the control of "the Muslim Umma" between 1948 and 1967. - Islamization of East Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation | WIKI


a. That as soon as the Arab Legion captured the Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem, they went on the rampage. The Legion's commander, Abdallah el-Tal, recalled, "... The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion....Only four days after our entry into Jerusalem the Jewish Quarter had become a graveyard..." (from Abdallah el-Tal, Disaster of Palestine, Cairo 1959).

b. The Jews living in the quarter that survived that rampage were forced to surrender and to leave their homes.

c. The destruction, desecration, and systematic looting of Jewish sites in east Jerusalem continued all through this period - 57 ancient synagogues, libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals.

d. In addition, thousands of tombstones from the ancient cemetery on the Mount of Olives were used as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian army camps. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery.​


So, in this 19 year period, East Jerusalem was made exclusively Arab. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This was in the face of the fact that Jewish presence and sovereignty in east Jerusalem actually predated the Arab presence there, and was nearly continuous.

The destruction (and actual genuine "apartheid") continued until Jordan lost control again in June 1967.


But what representative of any of the Muslim Umma anywhere have not stated their intentions as regards Jerusalem? - Never mind Iran's annual "Al Quds" day (Jerusalem day), and the rhetoric and activities on display during it. - Even ISIS are focused on it. E.g.


"As for the near term, you will see the legions of the Khilafah pounding your lands and your fortresses - They will liberate Jerusalem from your filth, by Allah's permission."

"O Jews, indeed the one who handed you Jerusalem said, "The Crusade is over". - But today, we say to you, the Islamic conquests have begun, and the Jews have become frightened because the promise is near..."
(From their released video where they execute the alleged Mossad agent)​


Or, another statement here that ISIS released in 2014, in CAIRO, NOVEMBER 3 - The Islamic State (ISIS) has issued a statement saying that an Islamic Caliphate will be established in the Sinai, calling it the ''first step towards the invasion of Jerusalem''. The statement threatens Egyptian security forces, which were suffered an attack on October 24. ISIS urged jihadists in the region to ''destroy police checkpoints and stations, launch RPGs at their gatherings and show the world that the Rule of God must be imposed' - ISIS 'to set up Islamic Caliphate in Sinai' - General news - ANSAMed.it

(And note, infact, that only two days ago, Egyptian media reported that ISIS armed militants from Syria are pouring into Sinai, passing through Jordan - https://ar.rt.com/jmx0)


So, is it not evident that the ordinary Palestinian people are merely pawns?

Then, how would we logically best ensure that their best interests, freedom, right to self determination, prosperity and security would be protected?

I highly doubt it is by appeasing the OIC.
 


roc_

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GDPR

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roc_ if the whole thing comes down to Islam than why are Christian Palestinians if anything more opposed to the Zionist project than their Muslim sisters and brothers? Also you should know that the Zohar while completely demonizing Christians and Christianity gives in several places Muslims the same position as converts to Judaism (Islam of course begun life as a Jewish sect). Jews have generally got on better historically with Muslims than you lot have with Christians. Stop trying to get us to fight your wars with the Islamic world.
 

Dame_Enda

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Despite the claims of Israeli officialdom, Jerusalem was not "the capital of the Jewish people for 3000 years". Hadrian expelled the Jews and renamed the city Aelia Capitolina, and when the Arabs conquered it, they referred to it as "Ilya". The ban on Jews entering Jerusalem was enforced until at least the late 4th century. In between the Jewish expulsion and Arab period it was populated largely by Greek settlers and their descendants - a fact underlined by how the names of the local Christian clerics changed from recognisably semitic to recognisably Greek. When the Crusaders conquered it it was mostly Muslim.
 

roc_

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roc_ if the whole thing comes down to Islam than why are Christian Palestinians if anything more opposed to the Zionist project than their Muslim sisters and brothers? Also you should know that the Zohar while completely demonizing Christians and Christianity gives in several places Muslims the same position as converts to Judaism (Islam of course begun life as a Jewish sect). Jews have generally got on better historically with Muslims than you lot have with Christians. Stop trying to get us to fight your wars with the Islamic world.
Groups like https://www.facebook.com/arabsforisrael/?

Clearly one prong of recent strategy for Hamas and the PLO has been to wield Palestinian Christians as a weapon to appeal to international audiences - effectively saying, "the Jews act purely out of innate malevolence, NOT because there is a Jihad against them".

But scratch the surface and you regularly find what is the reality there - e.g. https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2016/04/the-persecution-of-palestinian-christians-continues/ / https://int.icej.org/media/palestinian-christians
 

The System Works

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Despite the claims of Israeli officialdom, Jerusalem was not "the capital of the Jewish people for 3000 years". Hadrian expelled the Jews and renamed the city Aelia Capitolina, and when the Arabs conquered it, they referred to it as "Ilya". The ban on Jews entering Jerusalem was enforced until at least the late 4th century. In between the Jewish expulsion and Arab period it was populated largely by Greek settlers and their descendants - a fact underlined by how the names of the local Christian clerics changed from recognisably semitic to recognisably Greek. When the Crusaders conquered it it was mostly Muslim.
A massive Jewish revolt was launched under Bar Kokhba over the construction of Aelia Capitolina and a pagan temple on the Mount. I suppose you could say Jews for the most part just didn’t recognise the claims of the invaders.

Perhaps this is not too disisimilar to Irish Republicans claiming Belfast is an Irish city as much as Dublin or Cork.

Anyway, I think this whole thing has been a bit overblown. The US recognising Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel and moving the embassy to its western side does not preclude the possibility of the Palestinians having sovereignty in the city, too.
 

roc_

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...Jews have generally got on better historically with Muslims than Jews have with Christians...
As dhimmi. Typically, only as dhimmi (specifically, when living together under Muslim rule, which is what I know you are referring to).

And look for example what happened in the region under Muslim rule when under the Sublime Porte's firmans (decrees) of 1839 and, of 1856 – equalizing the status of Muslim and non-Muslim subjects – produced a dramatic alienation of Muslims from Christians. The former resented the implied loss of superiority and recurrently assaulted and massacred Christian communities – in Aleppo in 1850, in Nablus (West Bank) in 1856, and in Damascus and Lebanon in 1860... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Syria

That also happened regularly with Jews when they became a bit too successful and "above themselves".
 

Wascurito

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roc_ if the whole thing comes down to Islam than why are Christian Palestinians if anything more opposed to the Zionist project than their Muslim sisters and brothers? Also you should know that the Zohar while completely demonizing Christians and Christianity gives in several places Muslims the same position as converts to Judaism (Islam of course begun life as a Jewish sect). Jews have generally got on better historically with Muslims than you lot have with Christians. Stop trying to get us to fight your wars with the Islamic world.
You have a fine line in asking questions that presuppose something others would go to the bother of substantiating.

After 2,000 years, Christians are disappearing from Gaza

Christians worry ‘Silent Night’ may soon refer to their community in West Bank
 

The_SR

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Groups like https://www.facebook.com/arabsforisrael/?

Clearly one prong of recent strategy for Hamas and the PLO has been to wield Palestinian Christians as a weapon to appeal to international audiences - effectively saying, "the Jews act purely out of innate malevolence, NOT because there is a Jihad against them".

But scratch the surface and you regularly find what is the reality there - e.g. https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2016/04/the-persecution-of-palestinian-christians-continues/ / https://int.icej.org/media/palestinian-christians
Those poor manipulated Christians. It couldn't possible be that they are unhappy with being the victims of apartheid. They simply must be puppets for those snakey Muslims.
 

Wascurito

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This is a religious issue. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is sacred to Muslims and all the incitement by the Palestinian Authority over the last couple of years has been based on the idea that evil Jews are going to occupy it.

Of course, the Temple Mount is sacred to Jews but Muslims want full and absolute control.
 

roc_

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... Jews have generally got on better historically with Muslims than Jews have with Christians...
There is no reason why individuals should not get on well together. The question is only what social structures do they live together under. And sure, religion is important in that. And tolerance and respect for same.

Tell me, what do you think of what happened to east Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967 as I outlined in my OP?
 

former wesleyan

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The_SR

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There is no reason why individuals should not get on well together. The question is only what social structures do they live together under. And sure, religion is important in that. And tolerance and respect for same.

Tell me, what do you think of what happened to east Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967 as I outlined in my OP?
Are you drunk?
 

roc_

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This is a religious issue. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is sacred to Muslims and all the incitement by the Palestinian Authority over the last couple of years has been based on the idea that evil Jews are going to occupy it.

Of course, the Temple Mount is sacred to Jews but Muslims want full and absolute control.
Not just the last couple of years. Ever since 1922, when Amin Al-Husseini massively restored and gold-plated the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa, all incitements have been essentially based on the idea that evil Jews are going to occupy it.
 

GDPR

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You have a fine line in asking questions that presuppose something others would go to the bother of substantiating.

After 2,000 years, Christians are disappearing from Gaza

Christians worry ‘Silent Night’ may soon refer to their community in West Bank
Oh be serious.....Zionist Jews had it in for particularly the Christian Palestinians and still do. Christ is vulgarly mocked on Zionist television in Palestine. I know you putting up that propaganda for others and not I. The Christians also tend to be better educated than the Muslims and so have been able to get themselves out of the nightmare of Zionist colonialism. It is illegal in the Zionist colonial project to share the Gospel with a Jew. Any Christian supporting Zionism is either a right thicko or a total cuck.
 

Cdebru

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It was indeed "striking" that in the recent UN vote on resolution GA/11995 that in addition to the 57 OIC countries, another 71 countries also came out in support of the OIC. (not in a good way "striking" I hasten to add.)

Let's remind ourselves about what is the significance of Jerusalem - whether it is about ensuring the best interests of ordinary Palestinians are upheld... or something else...


Recall Arafat speaking in 1993 directly after he signed the Oslo accords: (link)


"... The Jihad will continue and Jersualem is not for the Palestinian People. It is for all the Muslim Uma, all the Muslim Uma. You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me.

(Verse from the Koran in Arabic) And we saved him (Abraham) and Lot, and we brought him to the land which is blessed for ever...

And here we are, I came and I have to speak frankly. I can't do it alone, without the support of the Islamic Uma, I can't do it alone. And what to say like the Jews, go and you will have to fight alone. No! You have to come, and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem your first shrine..."


Perhaps there are some on here who don't grasp the concept of "Jihad". - So let me quote an early fatwa from Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran who I think helped explain it pretty well in this context:


"... Jihad means the conquest of all non-Muslim territories. Such a war may well be declared after the formation of an Islamic government worthy of that name, at the direction of the Imam or under his orders. It will then be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Qur’anic law in power from one end of the earth to the other..."


Let's also remind ourselves about what happened to East Jerusalem when it was under the control of "the Muslim Umma" between 1948 and 1967. - Islamization of East Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation | WIKI


a. That as soon as the Arab Legion captured the Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem, they went on the rampage. The Legion's commander, Abdallah el-Tal, recalled, "... The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion....Only four days after our entry into Jerusalem the Jewish Quarter had become a graveyard..." (from Abdallah el-Tal, Disaster of Palestine, Cairo 1959).

b. The Jews living in the quarter that survived that rampage were forced to surrender and to leave their homes.

c. The destruction, desecration, and systematic looting of Jewish sites in east Jerusalem continued all through this period - 57 ancient synagogues, libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals.

d. In addition, thousands of tombstones from the ancient cemetery on the Mount of Olives were used as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian army camps. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery.​


So, in this 19 year period, East Jerusalem was made exclusively Arab. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This was in the face of the fact that Jewish presence and sovereignty in east Jerusalem actually predated the Arab presence there, and was nearly continuous.

The destruction (and actual genuine "apartheid") continued until Jordan lost control again in June 1967.


But what representative of any of the Muslim Umma anywhere have not stated their intentions as regards Jerusalem? - Never mind Iran's annual "Al Quds" day (Jerusalem day), and the rhetoric and activities on display during it. - Even ISIS are focused on it. E.g.


"As for the near term, you will see the legions of the Khilafah pounding your lands and your fortresses - They will liberate Jerusalem from your filth, by Allah's permission."

"O Jews, indeed the one who handed you Jerusalem said, "The Crusade is over". - But today, we say to you, the Islamic conquests have begun, and the Jews have become frightened because the promise is near..."
(From their released video where they execute the alleged Mossad agent)​


Or, another statement here that ISIS released in 2014, in CAIRO, NOVEMBER 3 - The Islamic State (ISIS) has issued a statement saying that an Islamic Caliphate will be established in the Sinai, calling it the ''first step towards the invasion of Jerusalem''. The statement threatens Egyptian security forces, which were suffered an attack on October 24. ISIS urged jihadists in the region to ''destroy police checkpoints and stations, launch RPGs at their gatherings and show the world that the Rule of God must be imposed' - ISIS 'to set up Islamic Caliphate in Sinai' - General news - ANSAMed.it

(And note, infact, that only two days ago, Egyptian media reported that ISIS armed militants from Syria are pouring into Sinai, passing through Jordan - https://ar.rt.com/jmx0)


So, is it not evident that the ordinary Palestinian people are merely pawns?

Then, how would we logically best ensure that their best interests, freedom, right to self determination, prosperity and security would be protected?

I highly doubt it is by appeasing the OIC.
I hate to p*ss all over your efforts but your whole argument is based on one person using a word "jihad" and the interpretation another person, places on that word in a completely different context.

Come on you are not that stupid, you know your argument is a house of cards it is based on person A said this word and person B said this word means X, now the word could mean X but it also has other meanings.

Jihad: A Misunderstood Concept from Islam - What Jihad is, and is not


[QOUTE]


The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
The arabic word for war is: "al-harb".
In a religious sense, as described by the Quran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s), "jihad" has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims or believer, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam.
If military jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.
Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: "This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad," which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment.
In case military action appears necessary, not everyone can declare jihad. The religious military campaign has to be declared by a proper authority, advised by scholars, who say the religion and people are under threat and violence is imperative to defend them. The concept of "just war" is very important.
The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence. In most cases, Islamic splinter groups invoked jihad to fight against the established Islamic order. Scholars say this misuse of jihad contradicts Islam.
Examples of sanctioned military jihad include the Muslims' defensive battles against the Crusaders in medieval times, and before that some responses by Muslims against Byzantine and Persian attacks during the period of the early Islamic conquests.

[/QUOTE]
 

Cdebru

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It was indeed "striking" that in the recent UN vote on resolution GA/11995 that in addition to the 57 OIC countries, another 71 countries also came out in support of the OIC. (not in a good way "striking" I hasten to add.)

Let's remind ourselves about what is the significance of Jerusalem - whether it is about ensuring the best interests of ordinary Palestinians are upheld... or something else...


Recall Arafat speaking in 1993 directly after he signed the Oslo accords: (link)


"... The Jihad will continue and Jersualem is not for the Palestinian People. It is for all the Muslim Uma, all the Muslim Uma. You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me............................................................................





I hate to p*ss all over your efforts but your whole argument is based on one person using a word "jihad" and the interpretation another person, places on that word in a completely different context.

Come on you are not that stupid, you know your argument is a house of cards it is based on person A said this word and person B said this word means X, now the word could mean X but it also has other meanings.

Jihad: A Misunderstood Concept from Islam - What Jihad is, and is not


The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
The arabic word for war is: "al-harb".
In a religious sense, as described by the Quran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s), "jihad" has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims or believer, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam.
If military jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.
Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: "This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad," which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment.
In case military action appears necessary, not everyone can declare jihad. The religious military campaign has to be declared by a proper authority, advised by scholars, who say the religion and people are under threat and violence is imperative to defend them. The concept of "just war" is very important.
The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence. In most cases, Islamic splinter groups invoked jihad to fight against the established Islamic order. Scholars say this misuse of jihad contradicts Islam.
Examples of sanctioned military jihad include the Muslims' defensive battles against the Crusaders in medieval times, and before that some responses by Muslims against Byzantine and Persian attacks during the period of the early Islamic conquests.
 

GDPR

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There is no reason why individuals should not get on well together. The question is only what social structures do they live together under. And sure, religion is important in that. And tolerance and respect for same.

Tell me, what do you think of what happened to east Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967 as I outlined in my OP?
The Zionist mentality is that if you give them a hand they will swallow on arm. Given that circumstance....

Do you honestly believe that Zionist colonialism hasn't been a total disaster for the Palestinian people?
 

Wascurito

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Oh be serious.....Zionist Jews had it in for particularly the Christian Palestinians and still do.
Let's take this for starters. It's now the fault of Jews that Christians are leaving Palestinian Muslim areas.

That chimes exactly with the line here that everything that's wrong in Palestinian society is the fault of Jews.
 


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