Is there anyone on the palestinian side, of the caliber of Martin McGuinness, who will take a chance on peace?

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
There isnt anyone on the Israeli side who would do what David Trimble did when he faced down half of the Unionist community in NI by supporting the Good Friday Agreement. Unlike the Irish, the Palestinians dont have a strong lobby in the US.
Trimble was strong armed by London, many people believe that he was black mailed, into going along with the "Peace Process". It will take the Yanks deciding to seriously strong man and black mail the Zionists for an actual workable Peace Process in Palestine to begin but even than the Zionists may well try to find other allies in response.
 


roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,330
A more relevant and realistic question might be 'is there anyone on the Israeli side willing to take a chance on breaking with tradition to talk seriously about peace'?

There was one, Yitzhak Rabin, but you murdered him and a similar statesman hasn't risen from the ranks of Israeli politics since.

We're now lumbered with right-wing rabble led by a corrupt individual incapable of even thinking about, much less reaching, compromise with anybody who refuses to roll over. Big walls, arbitrary punishments, economic blockades, sequestration of water supplies, theft of land, internment and the odd cluster bombing of Gaza have all done their bit to ensure that peace with the Palestinians will always be kept at a safe distance.

The Israelis love nothing more than talking about peace. It propagates the illusion that you might actually even want it.
I wonder would you be surprised or not to know that Netanyahu actually was talking about conceding more to the Palestinians than Rabin?

True. Listen to Rabin in this speech shortly before his assassination, talking about his negotiations:


"...We view the permanent solution in the framework of State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian entity which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines.

And these are the main changes, not all of them, which we envision and want in the permanent solution:

A. First and foremost, united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma'ale Adumim and Givat Ze'ev -- as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty, while preserving the rights of the members of the other faiths, Christianity and Islam, to freedom of access and freedom of worship in their holy places, according to the customs of their faiths.

B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term.

C. Changes which will include the addition of Gush Etzion, Efrat, Beitar and other communities, most of which are in the area east of what was the "Green Line," prior to the Six Day War.

D. The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif..."


PM Rabin in Knesset- Ratification of Interim Agreement)


Netanyahu was actually willing to concede more than Rabin. But the problem with Netanyahu for the Palestinian leadership was that he was uncompromising on the location of military sites in the WB and their size. He also demanded a higher level of verifiability that the Palestinians would honour their commitments on security, on weapons collection, and other things.

Even, if you look to the records, Netanyahu undertook a serious effort at negotiation, even after what Arafat said in South Africa after the signing of the Oslo Accords. But subsequently, his position became that he would not do this again merely for international optics. He only would do it if the Palestinian leadership were actually serious about peace, and demonstrated that through doing away with the ambiguity, double-dealing, double-talk and back-tracking that they engaged in every single time they came to the table.

If you study Netanyahu's positions they are actually reasonable, which does make me wonder why the so called "pro-Palestinian" movement always tries to depict him as akin to Hitler. Is it because he has managed to save so many Israeli lives, or what?
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,330
... But why talk when a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as laid out in UN Resolution 242 is now impossible, because there is no room for it, because massive illegal Jew-only settlements run across the land.
Answer me this.

a. Is it true or not that there has been NO new settlement construction since 1991? Only within existing settlement boundaries?

b. Would you like to try and estimate the size of the strategic areas the Israelis have commandeered to protect themselves? Just to convince those familiar with the facts that these plots are anything other than minuscule in size?

c. I have often said on here that the limus test of any viable future Palestinian state in the West Bank will be its ability to assimilate its minority population of Jews, in the same way as Israel has assimilated its 20% Arabs. - Do you agree or not that any future Palestinian state incapable of this will turn out to be another Gaza?
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,594
There isnt anyone on the Israeli side who would do what David Trimble did when he faced down half of the Unionist community in NI by supporting the Good Friday Agreement. Unlike the Irish, the Palestinians dont have a strong lobby in the US. The settlers are Israels equivalent of the Orange Order.
So you're saying that the settlement that was the GFA gave more to Irish Republicans than anything offered to the Palestinians by Barak or Olmert ? What part of the GFA would be even an approximation of the self-rule in the Oslo Accords which preceeded those offers ? Which Republican leader involved in the GFA talks walked away and ordered a suicide bombing campaign ?
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,330
Here is Netanyahu proudly boasting - while not realising he's being filmed - how using trickery he stopped the Oslo accords...
With regard to the video where Netanyahu is covertly filmed visiting the settlers to offer them consolation on their recent loss:

a. Netanyahu did not negotiate the Oslo Accords. He was not involved in that.

b. After Arafat's speech in South Africa, it became fairly clear that the Oslo Accords could actually "equate to suicide" for the Israelis. Thus the other lady was likely correct in stating that. And Netanyahu would be unlikely to take her up on it.

c. With regard the "sentence" of his you swoop on, vulture-like, Netanyahu was interrupted as per your own transcript - We don't know what he was going to say after he said "...Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord..." Perhaps he might have said... "...from descending into farce..." or something like it?

d. If you were actually interested in anything other than trying to demonise Netanyahu, you would investigate what terms of the Oslo Accords did Netanyahu actually change and why. That is what reveals Netanyahu's true position, if you were really interested in it.
 

Erudite Caveman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
7,329
Zionists invented terrorism in the Middle East.
Well, that's hardly the case. Terrorism isn't quite as complex as a telescope, and didn't need much inventing. Frightening the sh1te out of a populace by violent means isn't something that any military genius in history can lay claim to.

Israel itself was born out of terrorism
Yesterday, one of the British papers drew a (favourable) comparison between McGuinness and Menachem Begin.
 

Erudite Caveman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
7,329
There isnt anyone on the Israeli side who would do what David Trimble did when he faced down half of the Unionist community in NI by supporting the Good Friday Agreement. Unlike the Irish, the Palestinians dont have a strong lobby in the US. The settlers are Israels equivalent of the Orange Order.
There were. Yitzhak Rabin most obviously and also Shimon Peres. The bigger problem was the lack of a SDLP like counterpart on the Palestinian side. Instead you had, and have, the equivalent of the PIRA and RIRA in Gaza and the West Bank.
 

Hunter-Gatherer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
1,492
We've seen what can be accomplished when terrorists, like Martin McGuinness, turn their backs on terrorism and agree to resolve disputes solely by diplomatic means.
would the 'powers that be' have listened to a peaceful northern Catholic leader back in 1968 ?
 

Gurdiev77

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
Messages
2,610
We've seen what can be accomplished when terrorists, like Martin McGuinness, turn their backs on terrorism and agree to resolve disputes solely by diplomatic means. We've seen, going back to the foundation of this state, what can be achieved when terrorists take the diplomatic route. So I'm wondering, why isn't there pressure being put on the palestinian leaders to turn their backs on terrorism and take a chance on peace. Why don't the supporters of the palestinian cause say they will not support the palestinian cause unless the palestinian leaders take a chance on peace? What are they afraid of?

It seems that the palestinian ruling parties and, of course, all their official and unofficial spokespeople hereabouts, are dead set on perpetual war which is all fine and dandy until eventually Israel retaliates
Arafat put his credibility on the line at the Oslo accord.
Unfortunately Israel seemed to choke progress.
 

irish_bob

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
7,542
There isnt anyone on the Israeli side who would do what David Trimble did when he faced down half of the Unionist community in NI by supporting the Good Friday Agreement. Unlike the Irish, the Palestinians dont have a strong lobby in the US. The settlers are Israels equivalent of the Orange Order.
were it irish people being bombed and caged in the west bank etc , do you think the irish lobby in america would change anything , they would in their eye , the irish lobby is strong but in the happeny place compared to the israeli one
 

irish_bob

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
7,542
Trimble was strong armed by London, many people believe that he was black mailed, into going along with the "Peace Process". It will take the Yanks deciding to seriously strong man and black mail the Zionists for an actual workable Peace Process in Palestine to begin but even than the Zionists may well try to find other allies in response.
what american politician has anything to gain by questioning the current unconditional support towards israel , they have have everything to loose

support for israel in the usa is total amongst both the political class and general population
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
54,165
what american politician has anything to gain by questioning the current unconditional support towards israel , they have have everything to loose

support for israel in the usa is total amongst both the political class and general population
It isnt "total" among the general population. Around a third support UNSCR 2334 compared to around 28% opposed in a recent poll. American Jews are evenly divided on UNSCR 2334, and 78 Democratic Congressmen/women voted against condemning UNSCR 2334. There is a growing divide among the Democratic grassroots (especially the Bernie wing of the party) and there was unprecedented debate on Palestine in the Democratic Platform Committee.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,330
Arafat put his credibility on the line at the Oslo accord.
Unfortunately Israel seemed to choke progress.
How do you mean exactly?

Israel Demands Arafat Reaffirm Peace Accord - NYTimes.com

"... After new disclosures that raised questions about Yasir Arafat's willingness to keep his word, Israel demanded today that the chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization reaffirm his commitment to the peace agreement he and the Israelis have struck.

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said through a spokesman that he wanted a statement of commitment from Mr. Arafat himself. A leading Cabinet minister warned that "if the crisis of trust continues," Palestinian self-rule would not go beyond the test phase just begun in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho..."
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,330
Arafat put his credibility on the line at the Oslo accord.
Unfortunately Israel seemed to choke progress.
As Oriana Fallaci put it so eloquently about his alleged "credibility":

"... This eternal liar who has a flash of sincerity
only when (in private) he denies Israel's right to exist,
and who as I say in my book contradicts himself every
five minutes. He always plays the double-cross, lies
even if you ask him what time it is, so that you can
never trust him. Never! With him you will always wind up
systematically betrayed..."
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,228
But why talk when a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as laid out in UN Resolution 242 is now impossible,
The resolution does not lay out any such thing. Read it.


So peace can only come via equal rights for all. The end of apartheid and a one state solution within which Jews and Palestinians live together equally.
That won't happen. No Jew will live in a state where people support the genocidal Hamas movement.

What people need to do is boycott these bastards. Hitting them in the pocket is the only method that will force them to end apartheid and free the Palestinian people.
If the Jews are involved money is the answer. Nothing stereotypical involved there. No sir. It would please the blood soaked thug in your avatar no end.
 

Gurdiev77

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
Messages
2,610
As Oriana Fallaci put it so eloquently about his alleged "credibility":

"... This eternal liar who has a flash of sincerity
only when (in private) he denies Israel's right to exist,
and who as I say in my book contradicts himself every
five minutes. He always plays the double-cross, lies
even if you ask him what time it is, so that you can
never trust him. Never! With him you will always wind up
systematically betrayed..."
I would not form an opinion based on one journalist , who is known to be circumspect about Islam for starters.
 

Gurdiev77

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
Messages
2,610
How do you mean exactly?

Israel Demands Arafat Reaffirm Peace Accord - NYTimes.com

"... After new disclosures that raised questions about Yasir Arafat's willingness to keep his word, Israel demanded today that the chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization reaffirm his commitment to the peace agreement he and the Israelis have struck.

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said through a spokesman that he wanted a statement of commitment from Mr. Arafat himself. A leading Cabinet minister warned that "if the crisis of trust continues," Palestinian self-rule would not go beyond the test phase just begun in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho..."
the 'crisis of trust ' was of course perpetrated by fear on both sides. Israel was always the more powerful of the two parties, and therefore exercised a lot of control over the process.

BTWMartin Mcguinness did not create the peace process single handedly. It also took vision form the Britain in the form of Tony Blair, Mo Mowlem etc, and that was a first fot them .
 

ffc

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
5,157
Marwan Barghouti could unite the palestinian people, in a progressive, secular political resistance movement, very similar to Sinn Fein.
However, it is in no-one's interests, either Hamas or the Israeli govt to release him. While Israel is happy to release terroists, who have walked into Pizza restaurants and shot children in the face, at point blank range, they cannot bring themselves to release a major palestinian political figure. A man who could be the catalyst for change.
Hamas and Netanyahu are happy with the current status quo, each blaming the other, happy out.

The Israelis have never had the same, sophisticated response to rebels which the British have. Maybe it comes from centuries of imperialism, but Britain never decapitated Sinn Fein, as it easily could have done, in the 80's. If Mcguinness and Adams were palestinians they would have been dead long ago.

When Rantisi, then leader of Hamas, offered a 10 year truce, to the Israelis, a more intelligent foe might have seen it as the seeds of a political path. If they had a brain cell between them, the Israeli state might have let it run and see where it went. They might have allowed Rantisi to develop a political strategy, which may have sidelined the militants. But stupid will, as stupid does, they incinerated him with a Hell fire missile.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top