Is this a good time to end Compulsory Irish?

Fun with Irish

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Schoolchildren will soon return to their schools having missed out on their classes for a very long time. There will be a lot of catching up to do on all of subjects. The children and teachers will be stretched to the limit. Is not this a good time to end the blanket requirement of Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert and all the years leading up to it? Even now there are too few Irish teachers, the subject is widely unpopular, and the standards achieved are too low to be of educational value.
 


Emily Davison

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It would make it easier to hire teachers from abroad. Such as the UK who don’t have Irish.
 

DJP

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Schoolchildren will soon return to their schools having missed out on their classes for a very long time. There will be a lot of catching up to do on all of subjects. The children and teachers will be stretched to the limit. Is not this a good time to end the blanket requirement of Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert and all the years leading up to it? Even now there are too few Irish teachers, the subject is widely unpopular, and the standards achieved are too low to be of educational value.
You want it to be optional before Leaving Cert as well? Good luck with that. I would have no problem with it being taught less, even before Leaving Cert., but you being very optimistic in hoping not only that it might be optional for Leaving Cert. anytime soon but that it would be optional before these years as well.
 

Fun with Irish

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You want it to be optional before Leaving Cert as well? Good luck with that. I would have no problem with it being taught less, even before Leaving Cert., but you being very optimistic in hoping not only that it might be optional for Leaving Cert. anytime soon but that it would be optional before these years as well.
Fair comment. Although, as far as I can see, the time being given to Irish in primary schools is shrinking anyway.

And as for being optimistic. No, I'm not.
 

DJP

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the time being given to Irish in primary schools is shrinking anyway.
How?

And the DOE announced a year or so ago a plan to assimilate the language even more in primary schools across the curriculum in general.
 

wombat

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In 2011, I canvassed for FG in Dun Laoghaire and while most debate was about the state of the economy, I was surprised at the number of times the proposal to end compulsory was a main issue with voters. The country was broke, there was a debate between FG & Labour regarding the approach to cuts and taxes yet compulsory Irish was the key issue for some. There is not a chance in hell that a govt will change that policy.
 

Fun with Irish

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How?

And the DOE announced a year or so ago a plan to assimilate the language even more in primary schools across the curriculum in general.
Agreed. But has 'assimilate the language even more in primary schools' any functional meaning? What outcome is expected from it? Surely, there will be no different linguistic outcome at all.

But to go back to my point: in this time of extreme pressure on pupils, resources going to Irish could well be reduced and exemptions from Compulsory Irish be quietly expanded. I agree that the politicians will never admit openly that Compulsory Irish failed and openly change the system.
 

Fun with Irish

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In 2011, I canvassed for FG in Dun Laoghaire and while most debate was about the state of the economy, I was surprised at the number of times the proposal to end compulsory was a main issue with voters. The country was broke, there was a debate between FG & Labour regarding the approach to cuts and taxes yet compulsory Irish was the key issue for some. There is not a chance in hell that a govt will change that policy.
I agree that the government won't openly change this policy. But this is a time when they can allow it to fade out a bit more.
 

wombat

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I agree that the government won't openly change this policy. But this is a time when they can allow it to fade out a bit more.
Different question, I doubt there is much interest in letting it fade, removing compulsion was not intended as a downgrade for the language but you can imagine the stink that would be kicked up if there was even a hint of change.
 

McTell

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It's further proof that the more we became independent as a people, the less personal freedom we had.

After unity and a merger with NI, it can't stay compulsory because of european human rights laws, one of the better arguments in favour of unity.

So if unity is your short or long term aspiration, ending compulsory irish can be done at once. If compulsion will be abolished then we can start now. Im not saying it shouldn't be taught, but as an extra.

Its like mass-going, you'll noticve that those of us who make a big deal out of going to mass, or having irish, are usually hiding some terrible misdeeds or flaws of character.
 

wombat

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Its like mass-going, you'll noticve that those of us who make a big deal out of going to mass, or having irish, are usually hiding some terrible misdeeds or flaws of character.
Speak for yourself. You need to address your own prejudice if you think that about thousands of people you have never met.
 

Fun with Irish

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Different question, I doubt there is much interest in letting it fade, removing compulsion was not intended as a downgrade for the language but you can imagine the stink that would be kicked up if there was even a hint of change.
Still - the Irish revivalist measures have been fading for a very long time regardless of the political rhetoric. My guess is that they will fade further as schools have new priorities. Agreed that Compulsory Irish will not be abolished, but it will spring more leaks.
 

redneck

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I agree that the government won't openly change this policy. But this is a time when they can allow it to fade out a bit more.
I see you are back, I had hoped that you would have "faded" out from this site. Irish will be spoken long after the Union of GB and Ireland is gone.
Be warned- Gaeilgoirí will fight to keep an teanga Gaeilge!
 

redneck

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Still - the Irish revivalist measures have been fading for a very long time regardless of the political rhetoric. My guess is that they will fade further as schools have new priorities. Agreed that Compulsory Irish will not be abolished, but it will spring more leaks.
Tá tú ag cáint ráiméis. Irish has been written off for the last 800 years.
Gay Byrne said Irish was dead.
Daniel O Connell said Irish was dead.
Terry Wogan said Irish was dead.
Edward Carson said Irish was dead.
Ach níl siad ceart, Bíonn na daoine seo marbh.
 

redneck

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It's further proof that the more we became independent as a people, the less personal freedom we had.

After unity and a merger with NI, it can't stay compulsory because of european human rights laws, one of the better arguments in favour of unity.

So if unity is your short or long term aspiration, ending compulsory irish can be done at once. If compulsion will be abolished then we can start now. Im not saying it shouldn't be taught, but as an extra.

Its like mass-going, you'll noticve that those of us who make a big deal out of going to mass, or having irish, are usually hiding some terrible misdeeds or flaws of character.
Tá tú ag cáint ráiméis. A United Ireland will be a Gaelic speaking country. A bit like Israel became a Hebrew speaking country.
There will be a widespread revival of the Irish language post any unification. The same way TG4 was set up after the IRA ceasefire in 1994-95.
www.tg4.ie
 

DJP

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In 2011, I canvassed for FG in Dun Laoghaire and while most debate was about the state of the economy, I was surprised at the number of times the proposal to end compulsory was a main issue with voters. The country was broke, there was a debate between FG & Labour regarding the approach to cuts and taxes yet compulsory Irish was the key issue for some. There is not a chance in hell that a govt will change that policy.
To be fair to Enda Kenny and FG- FG had the policy of optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. between 2005/2006 and 2011 and Enda Kenny tried to convince Eamon Gilmore in the 2011 Govt. formation negotiations to agree to optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. in the PfG but Eamon Gilmore as leader of the LP would not agree to it. I have a lot of respect and time for Eamon Gilmore and Ruairí Quinn but it was amusing to hear Ruairí Quinn in an interview after that Govt. had been formed blame FG for not following through on optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. when (according to the book Eamon Gilmore later brought out on the period) it was his own party that stopped it.
 

redneck

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To be fair to Enda Kenny and FG- FG had the policy of optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. between 2005/2006 and 2011 and Enda Kenny tried to convince Eamon Gilmore in the 2011 Govt. formation negotiations to agree to optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. in the PfG but Eamon Gilmore as leader of the LP would not agree to it. I have a lot of respect and time for Eamon Gilmore and Ruairí Quinn but it was amusing to hear Ruairí Quinn in an interview after that Govt. had been formed blame FG for not following through on optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. when (according to the book Eamon Gilmore later brought out on the period) it was his own party that stopped it.
 

Fun with Irish

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To be fair to Enda Kenny and FG- FG had the policy of optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. between 2005/2006 and 2011 and Enda Kenny tried to convince Eamon Gilmore in the 2011 Govt. formation negotiations to agree to optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. in the PfG but Eamon Gilmore as leader of the LP would not agree to it. I have a lot of respect and time for Eamon Gilmore and Ruairí Quinn but it was amusing to hear Ruairí Quinn in an interview after that Govt. had been formed blame FG for not following through on optional Irish for the Leaving Cert. when (according to the book Eamon Gilmore later brought out on the period) it was his own party that stopped it.
Yes - Labour blocked it. But, it has to be said that Enda hadn't prepared the ground for it.

In contrast, the current Programme for Government (p.97) includes "Task the NCCA to develop an Irish Cultural Junior Cycle level 2 short course which values the heritage, language, nature, biodiversity, and culture....of Ireland and history of the Irish language...". If a course like that were available it might be made a substitute for a Irish class that was just for Irish language.

And during the last government Richard Bruton provided for a consultation with parents to be conducted by the National Parents Council (Primary). That was a first and a concession of principle. Traditionally, the Revival of Irish was considered too important a matter to allow parents to influence it. The results were published. Of course the consultation recorded widespread opposition to blanket compulsion.
 


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