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Is this tax system just?

Gael

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Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Messages
162
Interesting to see that that sanctamonious cow Sinéad O'Connor is happy to leave paying taxes to the great unwashed :x

Celebrity names stand out in the exemption list

POP stars Samantha Mumba and Sinead O'Connor were among the celebrity names on yesterday's published Revenue list of those who availed of the artists' tax exemption scheme.

Yesterday's list does not tell the public how much tax-free money each of the 1,512 people received.

Yesterday's published Revenue list includes writers, musicians, painters, political spin doctors, journalists and playwrights. Some 28 are believed to have earned from €500,000 up to €10m in 2001, claiming a collective tax exemption of €46m.

Singer/songwriter Elvis Costello is on the list as is his ex-wife, Cait O'Riordan of The Pogues. Aslan lead singer Christy Dignam, also appears as does Brian Kennedy and David Kitt, the son of Government chief whip Tom Kitt.

Others on the music list include Finbar Wright, Juliet Turner, Eimear Quinn and Kieran and Michael Goss. Kenyan-born singer Roger Whittaker, who set up home in Co Offaly in 2000, is also on it.

Pauline McLynn, who played 'Fr Ted's' housekeeper "Mrs Doyle", claimed tax relief for her books. Also on this list is Mannix Flynn, crime writer John Connolly and children's book author Eoin Colfer.

Best-selling "chick-lit" authors Cathy Kelly, Sheila O'Flanagan and Martina Devlin also claimed tax relief as did Judy May Murphy and Sarah Webb.

Journalists include 'Sunday Tribune' political editor Stephen Collins, 'Sunday World' political editor Sean Boyne, 'Magill' editor Eamon Delaney, 'Sunday Independent' writers Gene Kerrigan and Stephen Dodd, and 'Sunday Times' writer Liam Fay.

The late 'Irish Times' editor Douglas Gageby claimed tax relief for his book 'Sean Lester and The League of Nations'. BBC World Affairs editor John Simpson claimed for three books he wrote while resident in Ireland.

Names from the theatre world include playwright Conor McPherson, Mark O'Rowe.

Director Jim Sheridan's daughter, Kirsten Sheridan, is there, as are "Navan Man" Stuart Carolan and Irish Independent restaurant critic and columnist, Alan Stanford.
 


FutureTaoiseach

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Mar 20, 2005
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greatdearleader.blogspot.com
As a neo-liberal, I firmly believe taxes are way too high in Ireland.

My solution would be to privatise nearly all of the public-sector except the railways and maybe schools.

The resultant savings would allow the Government to cut taxes.

Private health-insurance would be compulsory for those who can afford it. I believe that competition between insurance companies would mean people paying less in health-insurance premiums than they were paying to the health-service through their taxes. You see free healthcare is an illusion. It isn't free. We pay through our taxes.

I would retain the medical card however.

I would definitely sell Aer Lingus, and the state airports. The unions have too much power in this country. Thatcher had the right idea in terms of putting them in their place. Society needs unions as a deterrent to bad employers, but too often they branch out from their traditional role of protecting employee rights, and venture into ideological politics on questions like state-ownership, and immigration policy among others. This is not the role of a trade union. The British public elected Thatcher because of the 1979 Winter of Discontent, which illustrated what happens to a society with overmighty trade unions.

We should not raise business taxes. Investment in Ireland depends largely on low taxes and the absence of intrusive state regulation. I would retain the minimum wage, but oppose any attempt by the Irish Left to raise corporation taxes. In the EU, I would oppose the nagging of France and some other countries to try to force us to give up our tax veto, and would stubbornly oppose harmonisation of tax rates. The European Social Model has failed where unemployment is concerned in Italy, France, Spain, and most dramatically of all - Germany.

The Irish Left think emotionally, but are very lacking in forward planning. Their instinct is to throw money at a problem, without forward planning and consideration as to whether the problem will actually be solved.
 

PinkoLeftie

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Jan 28, 2005
Messages
64
FutureTaoiseach said:
As a neo-liberal, I firmly believe taxes are way too high in Ireland.
Despite having one of the lowest income tax rates in the developed world you believe they are way too high?

FutureTaoiseach said:
My solution would be to privatise nearly all of the public-sector except the railways and maybe schools.
After all the privatisation of eircom was so sucessful, wasn't it? :roll:
Investors and comsumers feel they fared badly from this privatisation. I'll grant you that competition has improved the consumer's lot and Comreg have done well (.. we won't have residential broadband in this country without Comreg, IMO) but what good did the actual privatisation of eircom achieve?

FutureTaoiseach said:
You see free healthcare is an illusion. It isn't free. We pay through our taxes.
I think we all know this. Hands up who though free healthcare was free! Anybody? No?
Free healthcare is free for those that can't afford to pay, not free for eveybody.

FutureTaoiseach said:
I would definitely sell Aer Lingus, and the state airports.
To what end? Why sell our assets while they are making money?

FutureTaoiseach said:
The unions have too much power in this country.
Finally! Something I can agree with you on!
:)
 

Danny

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Jun 23, 2004
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www.greenparty.ie
I agree that Unions are selfish, overlypowerful and damaging, but so too are business organisations and lobby groups. Why should unions play nice and business organisations dont?
I'm sure you'll agree that overly powerful business groups are damaging too. Look at energy deregulation in California,as well as a lack of strict environmental laws that result pollution costing €60 billion worth of economic loss and 500,000 premature deaths in the EU each year, all because selfish business groups kicked up a fuss about Carbon Tax.
A tough line is needed against all these groups!
 

smiffy

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Apr 11, 2004
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cedarlounge.wordpress.com
Just to be picky, the artists' exemption scheme relates only to revenue derived from the sale of artistic works, and not on all income the artist earns in a given year.

This means that for someone like Samantha Mumba, she'd be granted relief on income gained from her CDs (if any), but would still be liable for tax on income earned from performing (or appearing in sci-fi classic The Time Machine :|).
 

PinkoLeftie

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Jan 28, 2005
Messages
64
Danny said:
I agree that Unions are selfish, overlypowerful and damaging, but so too are business organisations and lobby groups. Why should unions play nice and business organisations dont?
I'm sure you'll agree that overly powerful business groups are damaging too. Look at energy deregulation in California,as well as a lack of strict environmental laws that result pollution costing €60 billion worth of economic loss and 500,000 premature deaths in the EU each year, all because selfish business groups kicked up a fuss about Carbon Tax.
A tough line is needed against all these groups!
I agree absolutly Danny.
Obvisiously trade unions are needed to protect workers rights, for example SIPTU intervened to talk to Irish Ferries in the Salvacion Orge case recently.
However it makes me mad when I hear of semi-state workers wanting extra pay because they had to learn a new software package or drivers refusing to drive new smaller buses (as I believe happened about 6 years ago in Galway). Businesses nowadays need the ability to adapt quickly to the changing marketplace or they will suffer and unions often seem to hamper this.
 

flakie

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Feb 21, 2004
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46
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www.irishanimals.ie
Gael:

Not sure why you're attacking people for applying for tax relief they are entitled to. Sure, I would take any I could qualify for.

Attack the idiocy of the law, but why jump on people for taking advantage?

And it's not just artists, it's horsey people too.
 

PinkoLeftie

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
64
To get back on topic: Is this tax system just?
I think we need a tax band for billionaires, so that they can pay just a small percentage of tax. Better for them to pay a small percntage here than they residing in Monaco.
 

Gladstone

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Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
PinkoLeftie said:
FutureTaoiseach said:
As a neo-liberal, I firmly believe taxes are way too high in Ireland.
Despite having one of the lowest income tax rates in the developed world you believe they are way too high?

FutureTaoiseach said:
My solution would be to privatise nearly all of the public-sector except the railways and maybe schools.
After all the privatisation of eircom was so sucessful, wasn't it? :roll:
Investors and comsumers feel they fared badly from this privatisation. I'll grant you that competition has improved the consumer's lot and Comreg have done well (.. we won't have residential broadband in this country without Comreg, IMO) but what good did the actual privatisation of eircom achieve?

FutureTaoiseach said:
You see free healthcare is an illusion. It isn't free. We pay through our taxes.
I think we all know this. Hands up who though free healthcare was free! Anybody? No?
Free healthcare is free for those that can't afford to pay, not free for eveybody.

FutureTaoiseach said:
I would definitely sell Aer Lingus, and the state airports.
To what end? Why sell our assets while they are making money?

FutureTaoiseach said:
The unions have too much power in this country.
Finally! Something I can agree with you on!
:)
In fairness pinko if we had followed what lefties wanted they would NOT be making money.
 

hivemind

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Jul 21, 2004
Messages
18
What Flakie said, what person pays additional tax than the revenue commissioners say they should?

I quite like the exemption for artists. I believe it helps a great number of artists survive and there are few cases of very wealthy artists availing. If the artists exemption was removed what net effect would it have on our economy? Very little I would guess.

The main interesting thing here is the revenue commissioners decision to name these artists. This seems like a name and shame approach, indicating that the revenue believes these people have done something wrong, which they patently haven't.
 

smiffy

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cedarlounge.wordpress.com
hivemind said:
The main interesting thing here is the revenue commissioners decision to name these artists. This seems like a name and shame approach, indicating that the revenue believes these people have done something wrong, which they patently haven't.
That's reading a bit too much into it. As far as I know, the other recent decision, to name those who availed of the scheme in respect of non-fiction books (Finlay, Ronan Keating and others) was made on foot of a Freedom of Information Request. It's likely that publishing all of them was part of the same request.
 

PinkoLeftie

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
64
Gladstone said:
In fairness pinko if we had followed what lefties wanted they would NOT be making money.
Who are *they*? I assume you mean the national airline.. If so, then I agree that if Aer Lingus was run by the unions then jobs would not have shed when they needed to be and Aer Linugus would not be making the profit it is making now. As you can see above, in fairness, I think unions in this country interfere too much in the running of businesses, to the detriment of those same businesses.

Btw, why did you quote my entire post if you only took issue with one part?
 

Gladstone

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Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
I'm too lazy to cut that part out...I should join a union and have my laziness protected.
 

david

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Feb 6, 2003
Messages
190
To try to get a different perspective, has the artists' tax exemption scheme has been worth it?

Can anyone speculate on what might have happened without it?
 

mjcoughlan

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Feb 5, 2003
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242
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www.bebo.com
All people should pay a flat tax rate. Just as it is not fair that the extremely rich should get away with paying tax, it is equally not fair that success should be penalised in the form of higher taxes for those on middle incomes. It's not right.
 

watch-this-drive

Active member
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
162
david said:
To try to get a different perspective, has the artists' tax exemption scheme has been worth it?

Can anyone speculate on what might have happened without it?
Joe Elliot would not live in Dublin, nor would Nick Leeson live in Galway
 

gobshite

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Jan 26, 2005
Messages
31
how can a journalist or samantha mumba be listed as an artist
 

Pax

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2004
Messages
265
mjcoughlan said:
All people should pay a flat tax rate.

A flat tax is regressive as those on lower and middle incomes pay more in proportion to their income than those on higher incomes. It's basically a downward sliding scale of tax unfairness.

In fact stealth taxes such as the refuse charge are just another form of flat tax or regressive income tax. The government cannot get away with openly saying they want to bring in a policy of increasing taxes on those earning less....hence the Stealth.

This government's policies have in fact increased the tax burden on those on middle and lower incomes. If you're earning 30k a year and your paying the same refuse charge (both houshold having the same recycling rate) and say increased college registration fees as a houshold earning 80k a year, the poorer houshold is actually paying much more in tax (an effective increase in income tax on those earning less). Is that not shifting the tax burden from the very wealthy to those on middle and lower incomes?

Also see the thread
http://forum.politics.ie/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=




Speaking of the wealthy the Super Rich get away with billions. See the article and excerpt below on how the xxwealthy have too much to afford anything above 0%.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0, ... 71,00.html

"Super-rich hide trillions offshore
· Study reveals assets 10 times larger than UK GDP
· Exchequers deprived of hundreds of billions in tax

Nick Mathiason
Sunday March 27, 2005

Observer

The world's richest individuals have placed $11.5 trillion of assets in offshore havens, mainly as a tax avoidance measure. The shock new figure - 10 times Britain's GDP - is contained in the most authoritative study of the wealth held in offshore accounts ever conducted.
The study, by Tax Justice Network, a group of accountants and economists concerned at the escalating wealth held in offshore locations, shows that the world's high-net-worth individuals earn $860 billion each year from their assets.

But there is growing alarm among regulators and campaigners because exchequers worldwide are missing out on at least $255bn of tax each year. Governments appear unable, or unwilling, to prevent the rich employing aggressive strategies to minimise their tax liabilities.

The OECD this weekend confirmed that international tax avoidance is a growing problem that troubles governments not just of rich countries, but middle-income ones as well.

'This is one of the defining crises of our times,' said John Christensen, co-ordinator of the Tax Justice Network and a former economic adviser to the Jersey government. 'One of the most fundamental changes in our society in recent years is how money and the rich have become more mobile. This has resul ted in the wealthy becoming less inclined to associate with normal society and feeling no obligation to pay taxes.' ......."



And the article Where the rich stash their cash
at

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0, ... 71,00.html

"Where the rich stash their cash
Nick Mathiason on a new study that reveals the amazing wealth the super-rich hold in offshore tax havens - depriving governments of hundreds of billions of dollars - and the looming crackdown by the world's tax collectors

Nick Mathiason
Sunday March 27, 2005

Observer

Rupert Murdoch last week floated his family's £3.8 billion personal investment company in Bermuda - saving himself £522 million in taxes.
Bermuda was chosen because the media tycoon, who chairs News Corporation, wanted to avoid the taxman after his firm changed domicile from Australia to the United States recently. Just prior to the Bermuda float, Murdoch bought a 20-room, three-floor residence opposite Central Park in Manhattan for £22m. Days later he bought a house in Beijing. ...."
 


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