Is this the end of Orangism?

AhNowStop

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I have never came across a statement from unionists on here posting something like this ANS...….

There is no doubt 'Orangism' has lost its sway politically. And truthfully, that is a good thing.

That opens tangient debate/discussion unlike the looney tune "bonfires, flegs, marching crap" we are subjected to from our usual suspects on a regular basis.
Yes I agree Bel is a sensible pragmatic unionist and certainly not the normal loyalist troll that we get on here but unfortunately I dont believe that statement in bold is correct MM ...

I disagree with the message not the messenger (btw Ive edited & added to that post since you quoted it)
 


Mickeymac

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Yes I agree Bel is a sensible pragmatic unionist and certainly not the normal loyalist troll that we get on here but unfortunately I dont believe that statement in bold is correct MM ...

I disagree with the message not the messenger (btw Ive edited & added to that post since you quoted it)

My very point sir, Bel posted something worthy of debate and discussion.
 

Presbyterian Boy

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Interesting topic. There is no doubt 'Orangism' has lost its sway politically. And truthfully, that is a good thing. Non political independent institutions should not be allowed to dictate how a state is run. And it is a good thing the 'Orange state' is gone.

In saying that. The OO will always be around, and the 12th will always attract big crowds. At the core it is commemorating a battle. That happens world wide and I don't think anyone can truly object to that.

While for me the 12th is boring. I can understand the appeal that it brings to people. It is a family day with music, bands, entertainment etc.

The problem is not so much the order itself, but the actual supporters of the order. Get them riled up on the run up to the 12th and they become alcohol fuelled bigots with a 'ATAT' mentality.

The Orange Order museum was founded to give an understanding of the Order, and has attracted many catholic groups and visitors. Showing, that at the core the OO is about the 'Battle not the Bottle' and many have come away with a new understanding of what is, at the core a christian organisation preserving history. However it can't be said that many supporters (and some members) adhere to that principal.

They do need to take more steps to change the perception of being anti catholic. Lifting the ban on members attending Catholic services would go a long way to help the image. I can understand them not wanting to take part in Catholic services such as communion that happens during services . (I don't take part myself when at a catholic service) But an outright ban on going is long past needing changed. A move also needs to happen to show that you can celebrate your Protestant/Christian heritage without belittling the catholic faith and remembering it is a commemoration.

It is good to see that there is less and less trouble these days. But a lot of the bad image Orangism has is due to supporters and not the Order itself. However, the Order do have a big responsibility to speak out and say 'not in our name'

I've rambled enough. Have a nice day :)
The thing that will save the OO will be a UI. Of course, that is a UI which simply means the Union flag being lowered and the Tricolour raised. If it is, the OO will be forming new lodges to accommodate the influx of new members.
Of course, if a UI was a new, agreed Ireland - think Tone and McCracken etc - then there's a good possibility that the OO will go to the wall. I'm interested in what Republicans think about a new, agreed Ireland. Is it a betrayal of the men of 1916 etc?
Interesting topic. There is no doubt 'Orangism' has lost its sway politically. And truthfully, that is a good thing. Non political independent institutions should not be allowed to dictate how a state is run. And it is a good thing the 'Orange state' is gone.

In saying that. The OO will always be around, and the 12th will always attract big crowds. At the core it is commemorating a battle. That happens world wide and I don't think anyone can truly object to that.

While for me the 12th is boring. I can understand the appeal that it brings to people. It is a family day with music, bands, entertainment etc.

The problem is not so much the order itself, but the actual supporters of the order. Get them riled up on the run up to the 12th and they become alcohol fuelled bigots with a 'ATAT' mentality.

The Orange Order museum was founded to give an understanding of the Order, and has attracted many catholic groups and visitors. Showing, that at the core the OO is about the 'Battle not the Bottle' and many have come away with a new understanding of what is, at the core a christian organisation preserving history. However it can't be said that many supporters (and some members) adhere to that principal.

They do need to take more steps to change the perception of being anti catholic. Lifting the ban on members attending Catholic services would go a long way to help the image. I can understand them not wanting to take part in Catholic services such as communion that happens during services . (I don't take part myself when at a catholic service) But an outright ban on going is long past needing changed. A move also needs to happen to show that you can celebrate your Protestant/Christian heritage without belittling the catholic faith and remembering it is a commemoration.

It is good to see that there is less and less trouble these days. But a lot of the bad image Orangism has is due to supporters and not the Order itself. However, the Order do have a big responsibility to speak out and say 'not in our name'

I've rambled enough. Have a nice day :)
 

Golah veNekhar

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The thing that will save the OO will be a UI. Of course, that is a UI which simply means the Union flag being lowered and the Tricolour raised. If it is, the OO will be forming new lodges to accommodate the influx of new members.
Of course, if a UI was a new, agreed Ireland - think Tone and McCracken etc - then there's a good possibility that the OO will go to the wall. I'm interested in what Republicans think about a new, agreed Ireland. Is it a betrayal of the men of 1916 etc?
Tone and McCracken were savages inspired by successful rebellion of some of England's North American colonies, which led to a blood bath for those who had remained loyal to HMG and what the French called the "Great Revolution". The whole thing of having orange on the fleg is disgusting- not least for what the "Glorious Revolution" meant for the common people of England, Scotland and Wales.
 

raetsel

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I can understand them not wanting to take part in Catholic services such as communion that happens during services . (I don't take part myself when at a catholic service)
Not only are you not expected to take part in it, it is explicitly not permitted, as to be eligible, you need to be a baptised Catholic who has already gone through a process of preparation to receive the sacrament of Communion.
 

McSlaggart

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The banned parades on Saturday are Bridgeton Protestant Boys Flute Band, Pride of the North Flute Band, Republican Network for Unity as well as two from the Whiteinch Orange and Purple District No 7.



Reading the comments details how disliked the Orange order is by the wider British community.
 

McSlaggart

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LOYALISTS protesting march bans in Glasgow have claimed an "isolated incident" which saw a priest spat on has fueled a bigoted tirade against them.

Scottish Protestants Against Discrimination, supported by the Orange Order, gathered in the city's George Square today after council chiefs announced six planned processions over the weekend had been axed.

 

Observer B

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Not according to my link in the OP sir.
You have to be cognizant of the fact that the story in the OP is related to the OO in Scotland. The OO in Scotland certainly seems to be is steep decline in recent years. However, in Ireland (It is an all Ireland institution), while it has been in gradual decline for years it has not reached the steep decline it has in Scotland (yet), but still in decline though.
 

Observer B

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The Orange Order museum was founded to give an understanding of the Order, and has attracted many catholic groups and visitors. Showing, that at the core the OO is about the 'Battle not the Bottle' and many have come away with a new understanding of what is, at the core a christian organisation preserving history. However it can't be said that many supporters (and some members) adhere to that principal.

They do need to take more steps to change the perception of being anti catholic.
The problem is that it is not a "perception of being anti catholic" they are blatantly anti catholic. One of their core founding principals was to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy and this is still a core belief. Some in the OO claim that it is not a sectarian organization and that it is a religious one (exclusive to reformed Protestants). However, if you are closely related to a catholic, you can not be a member (Not if you come clean about it anyway). So, you could be a reformed protestant and not allowed to join the OO , so it is not wholly inclusive to reformed protestants. So not a religious organization, a sectarian one.

I would have no issue with the OO celebrating the 12th if they dropped the sectarianism and stopped antagonizing the rest of the population.

And why 2500 marches pa? It's joke. A throwback from when they were in ascendancy and rubbing it in everyone else's faces. In the republic during 2017 the GAA had to pay the Gardaí 420K for policing football matches. The OO should have to do the same for marches, why should tax payers pay 18M for policing per season? and that's for a peaceful season.
 

AhNowStop

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The problem is that it is not a "perception of being anti catholic" they are blatantly anti catholic. One of their core founding principals was to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy and this is still a core belief. Some in the OO claim that it is not a sectarian organization and that it is a religious one (exclusive to reformed Protestants). However, if you are closely related to a catholic, you can not be a member (Not if you come clean about it anyway). So, you could be a reformed protestant and not allowed to join the OO , so it is not wholly inclusive to reformed protestants. So not a religious organization, a sectarian one.

I would have no issue with the OO celebrating the 12th if they dropped the sectarianism and stopped antagonizing the rest of the population.

And why 2500 marches pa? It's joke. A throwback from when they were in ascendancy and rubbing it in everyone else's faces. In the republic during 2017 the GAA had to pay the Gardaí 420K for policing football matches. The OO should have to do the same for marches, why should tax payers pay 18M for policing per season? and that's for a peaceful season.
Their very creation was due to the relaxing of the penal laws which gave catholics a little bit more than they had .. still not equality or anything like it but just that little bit more was enough to get these bigoted insecure creatures on their hind legs and out looking for trouble...
 

Mickeymac

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You have to be cognizant of the fact that the story in the OP is related to the OO in Scotland. The OO in Scotland certainly seems to be is steep decline in recent years. However, in Ireland (It is an all Ireland institution), while it has been in gradual decline for years it has not reached the steep decline it has in Scotland (yet), but still in decline though.

Indeed sir and I find it astounding that since the one party onionist junta was done away with by London, many inititives were introduced in the North of Ireland to establish stability and not one involved orange order influence and the negative effect it had in the whole conflict and it's continuance of sectarianism even though the GFA was signed some 20 years ago.
 

EnglishObserver

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Yes Sireeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

LOL
 

Dame_Enda

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The problem is that it is not a "perception of being anti catholic" they are blatantly anti catholic. One of their core founding principals was to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy and this is still a core belief. Some in the OO claim that it is not a sectarian organization and that it is a religious one (exclusive to reformed Protestants). However, if you are closely related to a catholic, you can not be a member (Not if you come clean about it anyway). So, you could be a reformed protestant and not allowed to join the OO , so it is not wholly inclusive to reformed protestants. So not a religious organization, a sectarian one.

I would have no issue with the OO celebrating the 12th if they dropped the sectarianism and stopped antagonizing the rest of the population.

And why 2500 marches pa? It's joke. A throwback from when they were in ascendancy and rubbing it in everyone else's faces. In the republic during 2017 the GAA had to pay the Gardaí 420K for policing football matches. The OO should have to do the same for marches, why should tax payers pay 18M for policing per season? and that's for a peaceful season.
In the 1990s it was around 17,000 marches so the decline is real.
 

Mickeymac

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Their very creation was due to the relaxing of the penal laws which gave catholics a little bit more than they had .. still not equality or anything like it but just that little bit more was enough to get these bigoted insecure creatures on their hind legs and out looking for trouble...


When Scotland rid themselves from these AH's it should all take place on the same day they do so on the island of Ireland sir.
 

EnglishObserver

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In any deeply divided society, there should be no sectarian hatefests at all...…….end of.
Oh come on Mick - we all enjoy the odd hatefest! What do you think a football match is? Or should I say soccerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

Mickeymac

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Oh come on Mick - we all enjoy the odd hatefest! What do you think a football match is? Or should I say soccerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

False equivalence between a game of soccer and the annual Orange hatefests.

The only link I can find to your definition of a hatefest is when your pub team, Glasgow rangers and Linfield attempt to play the "beautiful game":ROFLMAO:
 


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