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Is torture acceptable ? (24)


cyberianpan

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I was watching the new season of 24 last night and there's a "new era" showdown between Jack Bauer and the US Senate on torture.

I'm wondering is torture acceptable ?

For the convenience of this debate we'll assume

1) that torture works (unclear)
2) that it is against a convicted terrorist
3) that a grand jury has accepted that the terrorist knows a lot more
4) that the torture say involves ripping off finger/nails

I'm not heavily convinced either way, though I'd pity the torturer.

CyP
 


seabhcan

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For the convenience of this debate we'll assume

1) that torture works (unclear)
Torture doesn't work to gain information. Its only used as a form of terrorism to break the will of a population. Thats why those who do it always make sure that everyone knows its happening. There's no such thing as really secret torture chambers because the whole point is that people know what can happen to them if they oppose the state.
 

CookieMonster

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No. ..........
 

He3

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Torture is barbaric.

We try not to be barbaric.

No one says it is easy.
 

cyberianpan

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Torture is barbaric.

We try not to be barbaric.

No one says it is easy.
Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?

cYp
 

CookieMonster

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Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?

cYp
By becoming what they are?
 

peadarmc

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Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?

cYp
Goes onto very thin ice there though with regards to the Geneva convention!! one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!!

Torture is wrong! it should not not be carried out under any circumstances! torture, whether, at the behest of government and state authorities is itself, the very same barbarism you speak of!
 

ibis

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Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?
Would you advocate becoming barbaric in order to combat barbarism?
 

Christine Murray

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l did not note tags and assume that you are reffering to the t.v programme, l think it weird to entertain at such a level - the equivalent of a medieval mystery play in terms of propaganda dissemination. l recommend a g2 interview with lyndie england to look at the psyche of one of the abu ghraib survivors, it was published in the new year...
 

cyberianpan

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By becoming what they are?
Mmmm that's why I said I pity the torturer ... but not so sure if we do become so - I'd argue that they gave up their humanity when they became barbarians ... so same way you could "shoot a dog gone bad" you can do as you like with a barbarian ... I'm not quite convinced on the logic

The thing that really nags me though is leaving innocent people to die...

cYp
 

draiocht23

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Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?

cYp
I'm presuming you're trying to be mischievous by posing a question that has been well and truly answered.

Tortured people will tell you whatever you want them to after a while. Ergo, the only premise for it is utterly inherently flawed.

Also, feeling sorry for the torturer? How compassionate. Feel much sympathy for murderers as well then?
 

CookieMonster

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cyberianpan

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I'm presuming you're trying to be mischievous by posing a question that has been well and truly answered.

Tortured people will tell you whatever you want them to after a while. Ergo, the only premise for it is utterly inherently flawed.
I'm not being mischievous here, just I've an open mind on what seems to be an important issue (which is odd for me !)

As noted in 1) above I am leaving aside as to whether torture is effective, that can be empirically determined.

Whether torture is morally acceptable can only be determined by thinking/debating
Also, feeling sorry for the torturer? How compassionate. Feel much sympathy for murderers as well then?
A well intentioned torturer might be someone to feel sorry for - same way you might feel sorry for a police officer who shoots a gunman in self defence

cYp
 

yehbut_nobut

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corelli

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Mmmmmm but if others are being barbaric ... and they're fully signed up card-carrying barbarians (as per example above) - then they've abrogated their rights and it is incumbent upon us to prevent more barbarianism ?

cYp
Two wrongs do not make a right, etc.
 

East Coast Elitist

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A well intentioned torturer might be someone to feel sorry for - same way you might feel sorry for a police officer who shoots a gunman in self defence

cYp
That's what watching 24 will do for you--it humanizes the torturer. It's no coincidence that it began running in November 2001.
 

peadarmc

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acting out of immediate self defence is morally justifiable! as a reference point, even the RCC would agree that wars are sometimes justified and that killing done on such a battlefield would be utterly regrettable yet not morally reprehensible!

However torture is seen as morally abhorrent and it is! what right has anyone to inflict such pain on an individual! to do so is GBH and as such a serious criminal offence! just because it may be "state-sanctioned" does not in my eyes demote it in any way from still being a very inhumane criminal act of GBH!!
 

draiocht23

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Whether torture is morally acceptable can only be determined by thinking/debating
How can it be morally acceptable when it's only purpose is redundant. As I said, people will tell you whatever you want them to if tortured/threatened with torture.

Your question is bogus. And prompted by an episode of 24 which, in my respectful submission, makes it even more dubious.
 

corelli

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acting out of immediate self defence is morally justifiable! as a reference point, even the RCC would agree that wars are sometimes justified and that killing done on such a battlefield would be utterly regrettable yet not morally reprehensible!

However torture is seen as morally abhorrent and it is! what right has anyone to inflict such pain on an individual! to do so is GBH and as such a serious criminal offence! just because it may be "state-sanctioned" does not in my eyes demote it in any way from still being a very inhumane criminal act of GBH!!
You are talking about the catholic principle of "Just War". Would you care to elaborate on its history and application for those not familiar?
 

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