Is Turkey now a 'Hostile State'?



The Field Marshal

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A wonderful country and people. Went there on holidays a few times and they genuinely like the Irish.
Socially Turkey is a very fractured country.
Because of great income disparity and widespread poverty plus high youth unemployment it is a highly fertile ground for Islamic extremists.

Essentially now Turkeys politics are under the lash of Islamic Jihadism.

That is the bald truth and Europes politicians need to wake up to that fact.
 

Analyzer

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The real Turkey.....

Asia Times Online :: Erdogan's flying carpet unravels

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has a growing list of enemies. "Among his targets" at a recent address to a Turkish business group "were The New York Times, the Gezi events of 2013, credit rating agencies, the Hizmet movement, the Koc family and high interest rates," Zaman reported September 18. Erdogan earlier had threatened to expel rating agencies Moody's and Fitch from Turkey if they persisted in making negative comments about Turkey's credit.
Turkey's financial position is one of the world's great financial mysteries, in fact, a uniquely opaque puzzle: the country has by far the biggest foreign financing requirement relative to GDP among all the world's large economies, yet the sources of its financing are impossible to trace. I have analyzed sovereign debt risk for three decades - including stints as head of credit strategy at Credit Suisse and head of debt research at Bank of America - and have never seen anything quite like this.
The biggest contribution to reported GDP growth during the second quarter came from the finance sector. In short, the central bank is counting the banks' contribution to the lending bubble as a contribution to growth. That is absurd, considering that most of the increase in lending to the private sector is to help debtors pay their interest on previous loans. A fairer accounting would show zero growth or even a decline in Turkey's GDP.
Erdogan's popularity among Turkish voters is not hard to understand: He has levered the Turkish economy to provide jobs, especially in construction, a traditional recourse of Third World populists who want to create jobs for semi-skilled workers. During the run-up to the 2014 elections, construction employment increased sharply even while employment in other branches of the economy declined.
It is another maFFia style boom. No wonder superficial snouts like McUseless and Dick Roche are impressed.
 
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truthandjustice

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This is very true Eire1976 but it is the price we of white Christian heritage must pay for centuries of plunder, conquest, colonisation and barbarism by our forebears. Unfortunately most European and North American countries are still at it. The British and American military machines who are constantly at war, have not fought in their own countries in a generation.
I'll let the brilliant Douglas Murray tackle this.
UKIP - Douglas Murray Tells The Truth: UKIP - Douglas Murray Tells The Truth - YouTube
 

SAT

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The real Turkey.....

Asia Times Online :: Erdogan's flying carpet unravels







It is another maFFia style boom. No wonder superficial snouts like McUseless and Dick Roche are impressed.
Far from precipitating a fall from grace, an economic collapse in Turkey will be used by Erdogan and his supporters to consolidate Islamic fundamentalism. Just as the last vestiges of secularisation are disappearing so too will the last vestiges of democracy under the guise of 'national emergency'. Erdogan's Muslim Brotherhood support base are more than happy to live in stone age conditions, in fact they probably prefer it, so long as they get to practice their medieval Sharia law.

Turkey looks like being a major problem in years to come.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Far from precipitating a fall from grace, an economic collapse in Turkey will be used by Erdogan and his supporters to consolidate Islamic fundamentalism. Just as the last vestiges of secularisation are disappearing so too will the last vestiges of democracy under the guise of 'national emergency'. Erdogan's Muslim Brotherhood support base are more than happy to live in stone age conditions, in fact they probably prefer it, so long as they get to practice their medieval Sharia law.

Turkey looks like being a major problem in years to come.
Will the Army stand for it though?
 

IvoShandor

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A wonderful country and people. Went there on holidays a few times and they genuinely like the Irish.
I enjoyed my stay in Turkey and liked the people,but I wonder do the more relaxed and cosmopolitan inhabitants of the Capital, the Aegean and Mediterranean resorts and other areas familiar with foreigners really represent the average Turk? The people in the deep interior and the Eastern Anatolian villages may be more....Middle Eastern in their outlook.
 

chunk

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Will the Army stand for it though?
Erdogan dealt with them a couple of years ago, in the Operation Sledgehammer stitch-up, where 300 army officers were locked up in dubious grounds for plotting a coup in 2003 when the AKP came to power (somehow managing to publish the key planning document on Microsoft 2007). All of those convicted were released from prison in June pending an appeal but the message would have been pretty clear to their comrades.
 

wombat

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I enjoyed my stay in Turkey and liked the people,but I wonder do the more relaxed and cosmopolitan inhabitants of the Capital, the Aegean and Mediterranean resorts and other areas familiar with foreigners really represent the average Turk? The people in the deep interior and the Eastern Anatolian villages may be more....Middle Eastern in their outlook.
When you consider that Istanbul has 26m + and growing, it represents quite a large proportion of the Turks. What amazed me most about the country is the genuine love that people have for Ataturk who seems to have been a combination of Collins & DeV who had the good sense to die while he was still popular. I found that Turkish women are quite assertive, they may choose to wear head scarves but it doesn't mean they stop using their brains. I also found that they don't have a great fondness for Arabs so I don't think there is much chance of them following any of their antics.
 

Thac0man

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For some years now Turkey, under the ever increasingly more authoritarian rule of Erdogan, has been deviating further and further from the secular path enshrined in its constitution in favour of radical Islam.

It has reached the point where some countries in the region such as Iraq sees Turkey as an enemy state.

The pace of Islamification seems to have gathered pace recently with pretty much all pretense at secularism now dropped. Constitutional bans on wearing hijabs and such in public buildings have been dropped and the sale of alcohol restricted, whilst last week Erdogan claimed women were not equal to men.

More worryingly for the West, Turkey's support for IS and for Al-Nusra becomes more blatant daily. Yesterday the Kurds in Kobane accused Turkey of actively supporting a new offensive by IS by allowing IS to attack from Turkish territory, and of providing coordinated artillery and tank fire against Kurdish defenders in the centre of the city to coincide with several suicide bombings and a major IS assault led by tanks.

Fighting continues in Kobane, Turkish bombardment wounds many

Erdogan's denial of the suicide attackers coming from Turkey is nonsensical. Short of teleportation there is no other way for them to have reached the border crossing. Plus, even while Erdogan was issuing his lies, fighting was continuing between Kurdish forces and ISIS militants entrenched in grain silos on the Turkish side of the border from where they had launched their suicide attacks.

Given Turkey's unashamed support for Islamic terrorists should the EU put sanctions in place and given that Turkey's goals are in direct conflict with fellow member states, is it time for Turkey to be expelled from NATO?

https://twitter.com/hashtag/kobane
Interesting take on the situation in Turkey, but the Islamic references you cite are cross coincidental. There is a world of difference between Erdogan's opportunistic and 'dreamy' conservatism, and the nihilist zeal of ISIL. Ankara's policies have been caught short by the latter, and the AKP is in danger of losing control of the 'Islamic' narrative it has been promoting to frame Turkish policy with.

If a suicide bombing was really carried out from Turkish territory (and it was reported to be an armoured vehicle), is it really nonsensical for Erdogan to deny it happened? Erdogan had no choice but to pull the army up to the border with Kobani. But after rendering it leaderless it lies exposed to the influence of Islamists, both those in Syria and the large number of radical sympathisers who exist in Turkey. Erdogan is under no obligation to expend Turkish lives defending a base for Kurdish separatism inside Turkey, especially when doing so against ISIL might mean picking a fight with a sizeable portion of the Turkish population (who already see Erdogan as a traitor to 'true Islam').

ISIL infiltrate and criss cross Turkish borders, with the help of a dangerous radical element inside Turkey itself, one that the AKP is keen not to provoke into open rebellion. In response Ergodan spouts some nonsense about Muslims discovering America, and makes a statement over the role of women in a Muslim society. But in truth Erdgoan is most reliant on the security police and secret services to keep the peace along the borders, and in some of its cities where radicals have a strong following. The army is along the border only to stop fighting spilling over into Turkey. Erdogan knows full well he can count on NATO to help repel any attack, but both he and ISIL are aware that NATO successfully intervening in a uprising within Turkey, would only invite disaster.

So is Turkey "the enemy"? No. Its leadership is just weak. However it is fair to say depending on where one stands, 'the enemy' are already in Turkey. And though that enemy is not ISIL, the danger is it yet could be. Up until now the understanding between Turkey and ISIL seems to have been that good fences make good neighbours. But clearly ISIL chose to see Turkish tolerance of ISIL supply lines through Turkey, as getting one over on Ankara. And for its part Ankara is just trying not to provoke them further. Most ordinary Turks would like to see Kobani fall, if only to punish Kurds, whom they see as siditious. But if through majority opinion that makes the Turkic people of Turkey 'enemies of the Kurds', it makes little sense to translate that as 'enemy of the West'.
 
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brehony

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Of course St. Mary McAleese has gone on record as saying that the Irish people welcome Turkey in to the EU. I can't recall being asked that question myself but then McAleese thinks she has the right to tell everyone else what their opinion should be.
Wow!
 

brehony

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A wonderful country and people. Went there on holidays a few times and they genuinely like the Irish.
And if you found that they did not 'like' the Irish, would that preclude you from considering their country and its people to be 'wonderful'?
 

Twin Towers

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That is absolutely true. Islam has historically been very belligerent and we need look no further than the prayer for victory over the Kuffar, which is uttered at most Mosques every Friday, to see how the them v us mentality prevails.
What is the wording of that prayer? Is such incitement against us being spouted in mosques in Ireland?
 

wombat

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I Most ordinary Turks would like to see Kobani fall, if only to punish Kurds, whom they see as siditious. But if through majority opinion that makes the Turkic people of Turkey 'enemies of the Kurds', it makes little sense to translate that as 'enemy of the West'.
Turks are full of contradictions. I worked with a guy who was genuinely religious but he despised Erdogan, listening to him I could only think of my attitude towards Charlie. He also thought that the only decent candidate for president was the Kurd.
 

SAT

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Interesting take on the situation in Turkey, but the Islamic references you cite are cross coincidental. There is a world of difference between Erdogan's opportunistic and 'dreamy' conservatism, and the nihilist zeal of ISIL. Ankara's policies have been caught short by the latter, and the AKP is in danger of losing control of the 'Islamic' narrative it has been promoting to frame Turkish policy with.

If a suicide bombing was really carried out from Turkish territory (and it was reported to be an armoured vehicle), is it really nonsensical for Erdogan to deny it happened? Erdogan had no choice but to pull the army up to the border with Kobani. But after rendering it leaderless it lies exposed to the influence of Islamists, both those in Syria and the large number of radical sympathisers who exist in Turkey. Erdogan is under no obligation to expend Turkish lives defending a base for Kurdish separatism inside Turkey, especially when doing so against ISIL might mean picking a fight with a sizeable portion of the Turkish population (who already see Erdogan as a traitor to 'true Islam').

ISIL infiltrate and criss cross Turkish borders, with the help of a dangerous radical element inside Turkey itself, one that the AKP is keen not to provoke into open rebellion. In response Ergodan spouts some nonsense about Muslims discovering America, and makes a statement over the role of women in a Muslim society. But in truth Erdgoan is most reliant on the security police and secret services to keep the peace along the borders, and in some of its cities where radicals have a strong following. The army is along the border only to stop fighting spilling over into Turkey. Erdogan knows full well he can count on NATO to help repel any attack, but both he and ISIL are aware that NATO successfully intervening in a uprising within Turkey, would only invite disaster.

So is Turkey "the enemy"? No. Its leadership is just weak. However it is fair to say depending on where one stands, 'the enemy' are already in Turkey. And though that enemy is not ISIL, the danger is it yet could be. Up until now the understanding between Turkey and ISIL seems to have been that good fences make good neighbours. But clearly ISIL chose to see Turkish tolerance of ISIL supply lines through Turkey, as getting one over on Ankara. And for its part Ankara is just trying not to provoke them further. Most ordinary Turks would like to see Kobani fall, if only to punish Kurds, whom they see as siditious. But if through majority opinion that makes the Turkic people of Turkey 'enemies of the Kurds', it makes little sense to translate that as 'enemy of the West'.
I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say :confused:

Your post is chock a block with contradictions. It reads as 'Turkey does not support ISIS' but then 'it does' but 'it doesn't' except when 'it does'. :roll:

Bottom line is why not accept Erdogan at face value? When he says he supports JAN and arms and trains Islamic militants, including ISIS, I see no reason to doubt his commitment. When his army acts in support of ISIS I see no reason to suppose they are doing anything Erdogan has not approved.

You appear to be trying to suggest Erdogan supports Islamist fascists reluctantly and has little or no control over his army, though you have not presented a shred of evidence to support this narrative.
 
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jcdf

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The neocons will shortly be directing US foreign policy. Turkey's support for Islamo-facsism is fully in line with neocon goals re Syria, Iran and Russia.
Your perspective on global affairs is very narrow.

The list of places that people of White Christian heritage can go and explore is extremely small.
Are you talking about tourism?
 

Druidess

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Hysterical nonsense. Erdogan is a Turkish Bertie, he'll pay lip service to anything that will win him a vote. The economy is booming at present so he remains popular, the opposition is also split but his biggest danger will be if he oversteps the line and attacks Ataturk's legacy.
I don't think so.

Unsettling as the utterances are of Erdogs , what is much more so is the fact that these remarks appeal to many Turkish citizens.
 

Bemafar

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A wonderful country and people. Went there on holidays a few times and they genuinely like the Irish.
So true. I was very surprised at how friendly the people are.

I had a wonderful taxi driver in Istanbul who brought me to all the major tourist sites and waited while I visited. At one place he couldn't remain parked where he had dropped me and phoned a nephew of his to meet me at the arranged point to direct me to where he was waiting!
 


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