Is Unionism a Culture of Fear?

Novos

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Working class unionists/loyalists have continually been led to the top of the hill and then left there by their leaders when jail sentences started to be handed out.
Look at the fleg protest or Twaddell, hyped up then abandoned again until the next election, then the cycle repeats itself.
Educational underachiever is shamefully ignored so fear and ignorance thrives.
Who benefits? Unionist politicians.
You could say the same about working class Catholics. At least they are starting to catch on that voting for SF got them nothing.
 


Mickeymac

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Liking the big mouth preachers of Unionism has ended when the TUV went their own road to no-where and a X UUP member took over the DUP because the old hands Ran from leading their own party- Sinn Fein leaders have been involved in the movement for over 40 years- the leaders of political Unionism are new to their own party's- poor Nesbitt has just left the newsroom and took over a political party- any wonder they are on the road to no-where-

Michael,

Leave him alone, he does wonders for Irish Republicanism and will probably and most likely garner more support for unionists in the new Ireland of equals.
 

vivabrigada

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What would you like the UUP and DUP to do about this?

If there is "a culture of antipathy towards higher education within that class" what do you expect the UUP and DUP to do?

I came from the unionist working class (not loyalist) and I ended up going to university, as did my siblings. The opportunity was there and our parents encouraged us to take it. As did many other parents in our community.

If the loyalist wasters have this attitude of antipathy then f*** them, as you put it. It's their decision to wallow in whatever they are happy to wallow in. The opportunities are there for them. Why should unionists care if they are happy to wallow as an underclass?
You underscore the point I was making, unionist politicians are happy to use working class loyalists when it suits but throw them to the wolves when it doesn't.
Paisley mastered the art to a fine degree.
 

Mickeymac

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Sad is a foreign national posting on an Irish site. Have you no friends you could talk to instead of posting nonsense on here?
Did you ever find those census experts yet who said Nationalist would be in a majority by 2020?



Once again pal, don't be looking over there, look here and address the OP........break the unionist mould ffs.
 

former wesleyan

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Do you not accept that from the mid sixties unionist paramilitaries were bombing and murdering long before PIRA were even heard of?
Spence and his couple of hangers on were busted after murdering two ( ? ) innocent people. Murdock from Loughgall set off a squib in the Silent Valley reservoir. I don't call this a " campaign ".
 

former wesleyan

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vivabrigada

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The only working class Unionists/Loyalists to break away from the big house unionist elite, criticise its misdemeanours (discrimination), and embrace left-wing Socialist politics were the likes of Spence and Ervine of the PUP. But because they were inextricably involved with and linked to the UVF, the PUP haven't fared too well electorally.

And that's the sad part. At least working class Republicans were offered Socialist politics by SF (the PIRAs raison d'etre was to militarily achieve a 32 county Democratic Socialist republic as outlined in the Green Book). Loyalists have traditionally been goaded and manipulated by Unionist politicians, then whenever they got involved in Loyalist paramilitary organisations and committed acts of violence, the same Unionist politicians distanced themselves and denounced them. Duplicity. Hypocrisy.

The Unionist/Loyalist working class is notoriously educationally disadvantaged, in the sense that there is a culture of antipathy towards higher education within that class, and the only Unionist to highlight this problem of educational dysfunctionality was Dawn Purvis formerly of the PUP. Ulster Unionist and DUP politicians don't seem to give a f***, even though PUL educational underachievement is not a positive for the union.
After David Ervine Gusty Spence and Dawn Purvis the PUP were successfully reeled back in by the DUP and Orange Order.
 

CastleRay

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You have described yourself as a Non-Unionist Unionist, if I recall correctly - whatever that actually means.

What does a "Non-Unionist Unionist " mean in practice ?
I'm pro-Union but I do not define myself by a single policy and certainly not in the way the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland do. I see them as little more than inward looking power besotted NI nationalists with a begging bowl.
 

Mickeymac

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Is that why SF has failed so miserably?

The same tired old faces trotting out the same old rubbish for 40 years?



Mange, this thread has got FA to do with party politics, much more serious than that, please try and help tackle the issues without your particular brand of sectarian hatred.
 

GDPR

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I'm pro-Union but I do not define myself by a single policy and certainly not in the way the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland do. I see them as little more than inward looking power besotted NI nationalists with a begging bowl.
For the moment at least I believe it is best for Northern Ireland to stay within the UK and not merge with the Irish Republic.

I would have radically different views to the UUP, DUP and TUV on a whole host of issues though however given that I support the Union surely that makes me a unionist?
 

CastleRay

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You come across as an old school, right-wing, Tory-Thatcherite, Ulster Unionist. In fact, far right on the economic front as an exponent of laissez faire capitalism. You can deny being a unionist, but your posting history suggests otherwise and reveals someone who is very pro-union indeed, and diametrically opposed to Irish nationalism. Now you can place yourself inside or outside of any political ideological category, and in what you may think is a clever strategy to avoid being pigeon-holed and to avoid criticism, but your forum commentary speaks for itself.
You've gone off on a tangent here due to some sort of dislike for my other views. Stick to the accusation of sectarianism, criticism of the OO and the Nama investigation against me. What am I saying that is wrong and for which you accuse me of denial?
 

CastleRay

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For the moment at least I believe it is best for Northern Ireland to stay within the UK and not merge with the Irish Republic.

I would have radically different views to the UUP, DUP and TUV on a whole host of issues though however given that I support the Union surely that makes me a unionist?
I'll respect that if that's how you define yourself.
 

GDPR

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I'll respect that if that's how you define yourself.
Well when I use the word unionist I use to describe people who believe that its best for Northern Ireland to remain within the UK. That is what it means to most people.
 

Mickeymac

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Spence and his couple of hangers on were busted after murdering two ( ? ) innocent people. Murdock from Loughgall set off a squib in the Silent Valley reservoir. I don't call this a " campaign ".



You really are a naieve type pal if you can not see the results of unionist murders and bombings which occurred years before the NICRA took off and the inevitable response from the beleaguered Nationalist communities across NE Ireland.
 

vivabrigada

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You could say the same about working class Catholics. At least they are starting to catch on that voting for SF got them nothing.
Working class Catholics don't live in a climate of fear and seige. Working class Protestants are encouraged to by self serving unionist politicians.
It's shameful, wouldn't you agree?
 

Irish-Rationalist

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What would you like the UUP and DUP to do about this?

If there is "a culture of antipathy towards higher education within that class" what do you expect the UUP and DUP to do?

I came from the unionist working class (not loyalist) and I ended up going to university, as did my siblings. The opportunity was there and our parents encouraged us to take it. As did many other parents in our community.

If the loyalist wasters have this attitude of antipathy then f*** them, as you put it. It's their decision to wallow in whatever they are happy to wallow in. The opportunities are there for them. Why should unionists care if they are happy to wallow as an underclass?
Well, believe this or not, I come form a unionist working class background too, and before I was about to leave school aged 16 without a single educational qualification to my name, not one teacher at my secondary school advised that it would be better if I took some GCSEs. Besides, I wasn't interested in school and education, as I viewed it as a complete waste of time. And that's because working class culture is one of leaving school at the first available opportunity and finding practical, manual, employment. My belief was that University wasn't for the likes of me. That was for the middle class.

It took several years of low-paid, dead-end, manual employment for me to realise that I'd made a mistake and to take an interest in formal education. I didn't read my first academic book until I was 18, two years after I'd left school. I left the job I had and returned to college (Rupert Stanley), did some GCSEs, then followed through with a one year "A" level course, and to my surprise got the necessary grades to gain entry to the University of Ulster. I studied a discipline that I was genuinely interested in, as opposed to one imposed by the curriculum at school, and I did just as well, and in many instances much better, than fellow students who had been to grammar schools.

If during those university years I had mentioned to anyone in the area where I grew up that I was studying for a degree at University, they would have laughed their wee bollocks off, as University was a different and alien world to theirs. Not part of Protestant working class culture, and certainly not one of their aspirations. With very few to no educational role models, working class children don't have the achievement motivation instilled within them at an early age that middle class parents instil within their children.

Working class kids are socially and educationally disadvantaged by virtue of the fact that they are working class, and those who do have the intelligence to do well academically have considerable social and cultural barriers to transcend. With the government imposing yet higher tuition fees on higher education, this has acted as another barrier and deterrent to educational achievement among those from socially disadvantaged backgrounds. Successive British governments since the mid 90s have effectively sent education back in time to a time when only the sons and daughters of the wealthy and privileged could gain access to higher education, when higher education was based upon financial and not academic ability.

PUL culture is partially to blame for the educational underachievement of the Protestant working class, but Government educational policy is also very much at fault, as it is not conducive to working class academic achievement. It is a barrier and an inhibitor.
 

Dimples 77

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You really are a naieve type pal if you can not see the results of unionist murders and bombings which occurred years before the NICRA took off and the inevitable response from the beleaguered Nationalist communities across NE Ireland.
What unionist murders and bombings were there "years before the NICRA took off" in April 1967?
 

Mickeymac

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For the moment at least I believe it is best for Northern Ireland to stay within the UK and not merge with the Irish Republic.

I would have radically different views to the UUP, DUP and TUV on a whole host of issues though however given that I support the Union surely that makes me a unionist?


Just a shame more unionists like yourself are not prepared to put their thoughts forward for mature debate, have to admit though, CR is doing his bit which surprises me given his history.
 

Dimples 77

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Well, believe this or not, I come form a unionist working class background too, and before I was about to leave school aged 16 without a single educational qualification to my name, not one teacher at my secondary school advised that it would be better if I took some GCSEs. Besides, I wasn't interested in school and education, as I viewed it as a complete waste of time. And that's because working class culture is one of leaving school at the first available opportunity and finding practical, manual, employment. My belief was that University wasn't for the likes of me. That was for the middle class.

It took several years of low-paid, dead-end, manual employment for me to realise that I'd made a mistake and to take an interest in formal education. I didn't read my first academic book until I was 18, two years after I'd left school. I left the job I had and returned to college (Rupert Stanley), did some GCSEs, then followed through with a one year "A" level course, and to my surprise got the necessary grades to gain entry to the University of Ulster. I studied a discipline that I was genuinely interested in, as opposed to one imposed by the curriculum at school, and I did just as well, and in many instances much better, than fellow students who had been to grammar schools.

If during those university years I had mentioned to anyone in the area where I grew up that I was studying for a degree at University, they would have laughed their wee bollocks off, as University was a different and alien world to theirs. Not part of Protestant working class culture, and certainly not one of their aspirations. With very few to no educational role models, working class children don't have the achievement motivation instilled within them at an early age that middle class parents instil within their children.

Working class kids are socially and educationally disadvantaged by virtue of the fact that they are working class, and those who do have the intelligence to do well academically have considerable social and cultural barriers to transcend. With the government imposing yet higher tuition fees on higher education, this has acted as another barrier and deterrent to educational achievement among those from socially disadvantaged backgrounds. Successive British governments since the mid 90s have effectively sent education back in time to a time when only the sons and daughters of the wealthy and privileged could gain access to higher education, when higher education was based upon financial and not academic ability.

PUL culture is partially to blame for the educational underachievement of the Protestant working class, but Government educational policy is also to very much at fault, as it is not conducive to working class academic achievement. It is a barrier and an inhibitor.


How sad for you.

My siblings and I were encouraged to think for ourselves and not have such blinkered attitudes.

There is no such thing as a single "Protestant working class culture".
 


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