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Islamic immigration into Europe MUST stop now.

G

Guest

It is currently estimated that there are 20* million Muslims living in Europe at the moment. That's a bigger number than the populations of 5 of the smaller member-states combined. Current demographic trends indicate that within 15 years, Amsterdam will be predominantly Muslim, and it has been predicted that by 2100, the EU itself will be majority Muslim.

Integration seems to have failed: whether you look at the multiculturalist model favoured by Holland and the UK, or the assimmilationist model propounded by France, Muslims remain a detatched, aloof community.

The Daily Telegraph has reported that some 60% of British Muslims want Sharia Law introduced in Britain, that 40% support Al-Qaeda, and 20% think the attacks of 9/11 were justified, and worthy of support.

In France, for one reason or another, Muslims rioted last year. They did the same in Australia some weeks later. We currently are going through an extraordinary situation in which cartoons have convulsed the Muslim world with violently-expressed rage.

For those who scoff at the notion of 'Clash of Civilisations', maybe you'd better think again.

It's my belief that when six people say you're sick, you should lie down. All over the world where there are large numbers of Muslims in Western countries, trouble ensues.

Do we blame ourselves? Or do we join the dots and say that there is a significant group within Islamic Civilisation that has hopelessly failed to integrate. Even if the 60 percent figure for Sharia Law in the UK was overestimated by half, it's still an unnacceptably high figure.

Can the Muslim population of a country continue to grow indefinitely without the political culture of that country becoming more Islamic?

Indeed, Islam need not be a statistical majority in order for it to function as one. Already people are saying it was wrong for EU papers to publish the cartoons. In Europe, it's not wrong to caricature religion. It's done all the time. Should it now become wrong? I don't think so.

On the front page of the London Times today, an Islamic gunman raises his weapon high above a tattered EU flag. One day, that could well be the case in Brussels, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Dublin.

If the majority EU population in 2100 is set to be Muslim, and given that substantially large numbers of these people can't seem to be integrated into our countries, I submit that it makes no sense to continue accepting Islamic immigrants into Europe now in 2006.

Until Islamic Civilisation has moderated, our doors should be closed to its adherants.

Yes, it's unfair to moderate Muslims - but how are we to know who's moderate from who's not? We are incubating a potentially revolutionary movement within our nations. Who's to say that in 2086, the Champs Elysee will not be stormed, and the Islamic Republic of France declared?

Am I talking rot? I don't think so. 2100's not so far away. And the demographic pendulum has swung away from us.

I'm not calling for a halt to all immigration - just Islamic. There are plenty of seikhs, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians from Africa and S America who could be integrated far more easily than an Islamic community 60% the adherants of which in the UK want to see Sharia Law introduced.

*EDIT there's actually over 50 million Muslims in Europe.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=46965
 


Worldbystorm

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You might see 2100. I almost certainly won't, short of those pesky longevity treatments coming in. But here's a thing. Do you expect Muslim birth rates will continue at a level that will ensure a majority Muslim community within EU borders (in defiance of all other populations once they integrate, join the middle classes etc)? Do you think that Islam will remain completly unchanged in that period? Do you think that any European state would permit an Islamic majority to overtake the pre-existing population?

I hope you mean Sikhs, but hey they were protesting not six months ago about a play in Birmingham.
 

stringjack

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asteroid said:
Yes, it's unfair to moderate Muslims - but how are we to know who's moderate from who's not?
Can't we just ask the Daily Telegraph? Those guys seem to be able to tell.

asteroid said:
There are plenty of Sheiks, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians from Africa and S America who could be integrated far more easily than an Islamic community 60% the adherants of which in the UK want to see Sharia Law introduced.
Also, plenty of atheists from Asia and post-Soviet Europe. We can't trust Christian immigrants - just look at the Jerry Springer fiasco last year. And as for the Sikhs...
 
G

Guest

Hmmm. I was unaware of militant sikhism (if that's how it's spelt). Point is, it's the Muslims that cause almost all the trouble.

Do you expect Muslim birth rates will continue at a level that will ensure a majority Muslim community within EU borders (in defiance of all other populations once they integrate, join the middle classes etc)? Do you think that Islam will remain completly unchanged in that period? Do you think that any European state would permit an Islamic majority to overtake the pre-existing population?

Yes; I think their birthrates will dwindle, but never to the levels currently to be seen in Spain, for instance. Additionally, millions more Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa will come here as the decades of this century progress.

My point is, do you want to wait around for Muslims to join the 'middle-classes'? Is time a luxury we have? What if they don't join the middle-classes? What if 60% continue the desire for Sharia? We've got to work with current evidence.
 

mjcoughlan

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Worldbystorm said:
You might see 2100. I almost certainly won't, short of those pesky longevity treatments coming in. But here's a thing. Do you expect Muslim birth rates will continue at a level that will ensure a majority Muslim community within EU borders (in defiance of all other populations once they integrate, join the middle classes etc)? Do you think that Islam will remain completly unchanged in that period? Do you think that any European state would permit an Islamic majority to overtake the pre-existing population?
The question is to what extent have Muslims integrated into society. When I see muslim people carrying placards in Copenhagen with the words "kill those who insult Islam", I think we have to question do these people even want to be integrated.
 

stringjack

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asteroid said:
Hmmm. I was unaware about militant sikhism (if that's how it's spelt). Point is, it's the Muslims that cause almost all the trouble.
See, the problem isn't with Muslims per se, it's with people of all religions (and a few others) who think their beliefs are entitled to immunity from criticism (even tangential or unintentional).
 
G

Guest

I disagree. It's whether a religion can co-exist with the Enlightenment. Islam cannot. The Koran was dictated to Mohammad. It's too dangerous and risky to keep accepting them.
 

Dunnit

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Out of all the immigrants who've come to Ireland, it's Muslims that worry me - not because I'm racist or anti-Islamic - but because a minority of them are hardliners who also have a quench for power and prestige. There is a question mark over the leadership of the Islamic community in Ireland. Who elected them? Do they represented the most recently arrived Muslims?
 

stringjack

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asteroid said:
I disagree. It's whether a religion can co-exist with the Enlightenment. Islam cannot. The Koran was dictated to Mohammad.
By Gabriel, if I recall correctly. What is your point? Old Testament prophets were dictated to by God directly, and Christianity is based on the belief that God took physical form to give his/her/its lectures to the people of Judea. The putative (and relative) integrity of the Koran is not based on the fact that it was dictated, it's based on the fact that it was dictated by Gabriel in Arabic.
 
G

Guest

The Pope disagrees.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA10Ak01.html

Jonah - a fallible man who sinned. Moses - a man who never made it into the Promised Land because of his failings.

The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. The parables of Jesus. The Letters of the Apostles, written by the Apostles, not by God.

The Koran is verbatim the Word of God - every syllable. Christianity is open to moderation and debate, and indeed, it has been moderated. It accepts secularism for instance by drawing on Jesus' cryptic statement "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's". The Church accepts secularism on this basis.

The Koran does not.

Stringjack - are you seriously suggesting that it's just a fringe movement of extremist Muslims causing trouble? If you are, are you blind? If no, are you splitting hairs with me?
 

stringjack

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asteroid said:
The Pope disagrees.
Disagrees with what? Disagrees that at least some sections of the Bible are literal reports of what God said? I think not.

asteroid said:
The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. The parables of Jesus. The Letters of the Apostles, written by the Apostles, not by God.

The Koran is verbatim the Word of God - every syllable. Christianity is open to moderation and debate, and indeed, it has been moderated. It accepts secularism for instance by drawing on Jesus' cryptic statement "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's". The Church accepts secularism on this basis.

The Koran does not.
...and according to those Gospels, God (in man-form, as opposed to bush-form or cloud-form or little-bits-of-fire-form) said X. The Koran is, actually, less direct than sections of Bible, since we not only have to trust the prophet, we have to trust the angel in question, too.

asteroid said:
Stringjack - are you seriously suggesting that it's just a fringe movement of extremist Muslims causing trouble? If you are, are you blind? If no, are you splitting hairs with me?
I'm suggesting that you are not in an ideal position to draw conclusions about the 'nature' of either Islam or Christianity.
 
G

Guest

Transcript from Asia Times article referenced above:

Now Pope Benedict XVI has let it be known that he does not believe Islam can reform. This we learn from the transcript of a January 5 US radio interview with one of Benedict's students and friends, Father Joseph Fessio, SJ, the provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, posted on the Asia Times Online forum by a sharp-eyed reader. For the pope to refute the fundamental premise of US policy is news of inestimable strategic importance, yet a Google News scan reveals that not a single media outlet has taken notice of what Fessio told interviewer Hugh Hewitt last week. No matter: still and small as Benedict's voice might be, it carries further than earthquake and whirlwind.

Fessio described a private seminar on the subject of Islam last year at Castel Gandolfo, the papal summer residence:
The main presentation by this [start new-window link here] Father [Christian] Troll http://www.sankt-georgen.de/lehrende/troll.html was very interesting. He based it on a Pakistani Muslim scholar [named] Rashan, who was at the University of Chicago for many years, and Rashan's position was Islam can enter into dialogue with modernity, but only if it radically reinterprets the Koran, and takes the specific legislation of the Koran, like cutting off your hand if you're a thief, or being able to have four wives, or whatever, and takes the principles behind those specific pieces of legislation for the 7th century of Arabia, and now applies them, and modifies them, for a new society [in] which women are now respected for their full dignity, where democracy's important, religious freedom's important, and so on. And if Islam does that, then it will be able to enter into real dialogue and live together with other religions and other kinds of cultures.

And immediately the holy father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said, well, there's a fundamental problem with that because, he said, in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism's completely different, that God has worked through his creatures [emphasis added]. And so it is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used his human creatures, and inspired them to speak his word to the world, and therefore by establishing a church in which he gives authority to his followers to carry on the tradition and interpret it, there's an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations.
The interviewer then asked Fessio, "And so the pope is a pessimist about that changing, because it would require a radical reinterpretation of what the Koran is?" Fessio replied, "Yeah, which is it's impossible, because it's against the very nature of the Koran, as it's understood by Muslims."

That is precisely what I argued in an essay titled You say you want a reformation? on August 5, 2003:
Hebrew and Christian scripture claim to be the report of human encounters with God. After the Torah is read each Saturday in synagogues, the congregation intones that the text stems from "the mouth of God by the hand of Moses", a leader whose flaws kept him from entering the Promised Land. The Jewish rabbis, moreover, postulated the existence of an unwritten Revelation whose interpretation permits considerable flexibility with the text. Christianity's Gospels, by the same token, are the reports of human evangelists.

The Archangel Gabriel, by contrast, dictated the Koran to Mohammed, according to Islamic doctrine. That sets a dauntingly high threshold for textual critics. How does one criticize the word of God without rejecting its divine character? In that respect the Koran resembles the "Golden Tablets" of the Angel Moroni purported found by the Mormon leader Joseph Smith more than it does the Jewish or Christian bibles. [/i]
[/b]
 

Reece

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asteroid said:
Transcript from Asia Times article referenced above:
....The main presentation by this [start new-window link here] Father [Christian] Troll http://www.sankt-georgen.de/lehrende/troll.html..... . by Muslims."
Sorry "asteriod", when I first read this post I really thought it was a windup - "Father Troll" indeed - but now accept its veracity.

I wonder if the writer of the post immediately preceding yours, would consider His Holiness as
in an ideal position to draw conclusions about the 'nature' of either Islam or Christianity.
 

stringjack

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Reece said:
I wonder if the writer of the post immediately preceding yours, would consider His Holiness as
in an ideal position to draw conclusions about the 'nature' of either Islam or Christianity.
I wouldn't, really, but I would consider asteroid and the person asteroid is quoting, and the person that person is quoting to be even less well placed, so...
 
Joined
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Ah yes, reminds me of the siege of Vienna in 1529. Sure wasn't there a time when the Irish themselves weren't Catholics, and some of them still aren't, sure then if in a few hundred years they are Muslims, sure what's the harm in that?
 

slany

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I'm fed up with those islamics who just distroy what we believe the most in : freedom.
I've got many muslims friends, they have made a beautiful link between their religion and french way of life and their differences are precious.
it's a proof it's possible.
it's also the proof those who use violence are ignorant and so in fear of the others. It's racism
We musn't fall in that gap, it's what they are waiting for, and the main victims will be these boys and girls who work hard to integrate into the principles of democraty
 

Batman

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slany said:
I'm fed up with those islamics who just distroy what we believe the most in : freedom.
I've got many muslims friends, they have made a beautiful link between their religion and french way of life and their differences are precious.
it's a proof it's possible.
it's also the proof those who use violence are ignorant and so in fear of the others. It's racism
We musn't fall in that gap, it's what they are waiting for, and the main victims will be these boys and girls who work hard to integrate into the principles of democraty
There's some weirdo's out there.
 

Reece

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stringjack said:
Reece said:
I wonder if the writer of the post immediately preceding yours, would consider His Holiness as
in an ideal position to draw conclusions about the 'nature' of either Islam or Christianity.
I wouldn't, really, but I would consider asteroid and the person asteroid is quoting, and the person that person is quoting to be even less well placed, so...
Even in the Kingdom of Heaven, is there no place for the perfect Knight?
 

Nils

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BritishPetroleum said:
Ah yes, reminds me of the siege of Vienna in 1529. Sure wasn't there a time when the Irish themselves weren't Catholics, and some of them still aren't, sure then if in a few hundred years they are Muslims, sure what's the harm in that?
The thing about the Irish and religion that you have to take account of is that they can be bought off: ardent Catholics until they started earning a few quid. Then they gave up going.
 


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