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Islamic immigration into Europe MUST stop now.

cyberianpan

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and on economic issues ... just what happens when the Arab oil dries up ?

I thinksome more real world testing al la the bomb cartoon needs to be done now ....

Yes you know many Christians would be offended by a cartoon showing Christ in full Nazi regalia as posited in today's London Times. However this is a fallacious line of reasoning: many Christians would also have been offended by it in the 1930's ... the politically correct appeasniks would have been horrifed but perhaps 6 million Jews wouldn't have ended up in the oven.

Indeed the same elements of the koran that provide the basis of the issue with the cartoon ought indeed apply to suicide bombers claiming to be working in the name of god. Ordinary muslims appear not to have been as exercised by those matters. Rarely do we see muslim youths in Germany besieging & attacking the Palestinian embassy/mission.

The extremists hiding under the banner of Islam need to be flushed out. Doing so will offend honest muslims but being nice & polite now & then having to wage a bloody war in 10 years time when the Middle East's oil dries up is simple moral cowardice.

Moderate muslim's weak efforts at dealing with the problem in our midst have failed. They must now bear some of the cost for pretending that there was no problem.

D-Mon
 


ibis

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asteroid, I take it you are aware that there are a large number of Christians who believe that the Bible is literal, immutable and eternal? I take it that you're aware that no such fundamentalism can co-exist with the Enlightenment, whether Christian or Muslim? That biblical literalists deny most of modern biology and geology, and deride the scientific method as 'atheistic'? You're aware what we were enlightened from?
 

FutureTaoiseach

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G

Guest

I submit that in France, Ireland, the UK, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Canada, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Australia, Poland, and about half a hundred other countries around the world, that Christianity has found an accommodation with liberal democracy. Can any of you list a similar number of Muslim countries? (Democracies whose secularism is buttressed by fear of military coup don't count).

Londonistan? Sure - give it oh, about 60 years. In another post I predicted that by the 40s riots and violence would become a common feature in Europe. With each day that goes by, that looks more likely.

The Clash of Civilisations is real. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trapped in a deluded multicultural bubble of denial. We can stop it now, to safeguard freedom for generations of Europeans to come. Wishful, idealistic sanctimony is a luxury we can no longer afford.
 

sackville

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asteroid said:
The Clash of Civilisations is real. Anyone who thinks otherwise is trapped in a deluded multicultural bubble of denial. We can stop it now, to safeguard freedom for generations of Europeans to come. Wishful, idealistic sanctimony is a luxury we can no longer afford.
Yes, and even worse when it's often so obviously a willful denial. :?
The 'truth is what we make it' mentality. It isn't a rational phenomenon, yet it seems you attract a certain type- the intolerantly 'tolerant' , and at all costs particularly to the truth!
 
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asteroid said:
I submit that in France, Ireland, the UK, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Canada, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Australia, Poland, and about half a hundred other countries around the world, that Christianity has found an accommodation with liberal democracy. Can any of you list a similar number of Muslim countries? (Democracies whose secularism is buttressed by fear of military coup don't count).

quote]

Spain, Germany, Poland, Italy and Portugal do not have that fine a history of "liberal democracy". As far as Ireland is concerned, and to an extent similarly for Portugal and Spain, the more we become a liberal democracy, the more we shake off the oppressive yoke of Catholicism.
 
G

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BritishPetroleum wrote: Spain, Germany, Poland, Italy and Portugal do not have that fine a history of "liberal democracy". As far as Ireland is concerned, and to an extent similarly for Portugal and Spain, the more we become a liberal democracy, the more we shake off the oppressive yoke of Catholicism.

I didn't say they've a fine history of liberal democracy. I said they've found an accommodation between Christianity and liberal democracy.

Some people are so atheistic and hostile to their own culture that they are avoiding the big issue; they feel obliged to prove that Christianity is just as bad and oppressive as Islam. This is pedantic in the extreme, akin to burying your head in the sand. For people such as these, no amount of evidence will change their minds.

While they're mulling over the incompatibility of Christianity with democracy (within a Christian/democratic state), in a sanctimonious airy-fairy way that avoids discussing the mortal danger presented by Islam, our liberal democracies are being eroded and eaten away at from the inside-out by the fanatics that first gained entry by hiding inside the Trojan Horse that is multiculturalism.
 

ibis

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Reading back over this thread (I'm a masochist, what can I say?), and thinking of some of the same opinions aired on other threads, I find myself having to ask "crisis, what crisis?"

Looking back over the last 200 years of Western civilization, the disaffected, like the poor, have always been with us. We've always had riots (except that it used to be acceptable to send in the cavalry to repress them), we've had bombing as long as there's been bombs. Flying a captured aircraft into a building was a new method, but capturing aircraft and killing hostages is old hat.

Nothing new on the terrorism/rioting front. I think western civilization can probably manage it the way it always has - condemn a few ringleaders, talk a load of waffle about not doing deals with terrorists, and surreptitiously start granting some of what they want.

In the longer term, it does seem likely that Muslims will make up more and more of the population of Europe under current trends. Is this survivable? Assuming we ignore the nonsense about the 'failure of multiculturalism' and actually let them get on with earning a good living, why would it not be? Yes, there will be riots, yes there will be murders, yes there will be terrorist atrocities, but really, so what? In the long run, prosperity and liberal/secular democracy seems to weaken both religion and culture, and I can't see why it will not do so here - most people just want to get on with their lives. Assuming that we defend what actually makes the West enlightened , rather than resorting to a darkness of our own, I see no reason why the lights should go out.
 
G

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Ibis wrote: Yes, there will be riots, yes there will be murders, yes there will be terrorist atrocities, but really, so what?

To which I can only manage a :shock:

and

In the long run, prosperity and liberal/secular democracy seems to weaken both religion and culture, and I can't see why it will not do so here - most people just want to get on with their lives.

It seems you miss the point. Secularism, liberalism and democracy itself are utterly detested by many Muslims. They hate the system. Remember, Ibis, we've got to work with current evidence, and this suggests that second and third-generation Muslims are more estranged, more fundamentalist, than their immediate forebears.
 

Simon.D

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asteroid said:
It seems you miss the point. Secularism, liberalism and democracy itself are utterly detested by many Muslims. They hate the system.
The same could be said of Christians, back when the church was in power..


asteroid said:
Remember, Ibis, we've got to work with current evidence, and this suggests that second and third-generation Muslims are more estranged, more fundamentalist, than their immediate forebears.
I think you find that these fundamentalists are an extreme minority of third generation Europeans.. Most are moderate, if not very lax about their islamic inheritance..
 
G

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Simon D - look at this: BritishPetroleum wrote: Spain, Germany, Poland, Italy and Portugal do not have that fine a history of "liberal democracy". As far as Ireland is concerned, and to an extent similarly for Portugal and Spain, the more we become a liberal democracy, the more we shake off the oppressive yoke of Catholicism.

To which I replied: "I didn't say they've a fine history of liberal democracy. I said they've found an accommodation between Christianity and liberal democracy."

"Some people are so atheistic and hostile to their own culture that they are avoiding the big issue; they feel obliged to prove that Christianity is just as bad and oppressive as Islam. This is pedantic in the extreme, akin to burying your head in the sand. For people such as these, no amount of evidence will change their minds. "

"While they're mulling over the incompatibility of Christianity with democracy (within a Christian/democratic state), in a sanctimonious airy-fairy way that avoids discussing the mortal danger presented by Islam, our liberal democracies are being eroded and eaten away at from the inside-out by the fanatics that first gained entry by hiding inside the Trojan Horse that is multiculturalism."

The classic liberal response to Islamism as was pointed out in the Irish Times recently is to "contextualise" it. If you think that only a tiny percentage of Muslims are extremists, sadly you are deluded. Read the stats highlighted in the first post of this thread.

I'm afraid that even as armed Islamic fanatics are blowing themselves up on Grafton Street in a few years, sanctimonious idealists will still be "contextualising" it.

They'll still be convincing us that it's "only a minority" when freedom of expression has been sacrificed to placate the not-so-tiny "tiny" minority. When our freedom of expression is being held hostage by the sensibilities of the stubbornly alien, vicious "tiny minority", even then, they'll tweeter on about the need to "understand" other cultures, how their disdain for us can all be traced back to our own lack of tolerance, our own racism, and about how it's consequently wrong for us to critisise others.

I'll say this to you, Simon D: Christianity might be a sonofabitch (though I don't regard it as such), but at least it's our sonofabitch.
 

stringjack

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asteroid said:
To which I replied: "I didn't say they've a fine history of liberal democracy. I said they've found an accommodation between Christianity and liberal democracy."
Indeed, and what you have failed to demonstrate, or even make a convincing case for, is the contention that it is not possible to find a similar accommodation between Islam and liberal democracy.
 


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