Israel Folau



Clanrickard

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riven

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It is great to see the lack of refutation of
  1. Folau discriminating against others
  2. Folau claim that he, and others, should not have to face discrimination
  3. Misquoting the bible to promote his non religious beliefs
  4. The staggering hypocrisy
 

Hillmanhunter1

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It is great to see the lack of refutation of
  1. Folau discriminating against others
  2. Folau claim that he, and others, should not have to face discrimination
  3. Misquoting the bible to promote his non religious beliefs
  4. The staggering hypocrisy
OK - I'll bite, but first I need to check to see if you understand the difference between real, and not real.

1. This is not real discrimination, insofar as the person doing the discrimination is God, a fictional non-real person. (Bear in mind that what Folau said was that homosexuals (et al) will go to hell unless they repent. Even if you believe in God the discrimination will happen in another life, one not subject to the laws and mores of men. Had Folau said that he would not work with homosexuals, that would have been discrimination.
2. By contrast, the discrimination faced by Folau (i.e. the loss of his job) is a real thing, it happened, in this world.
3. Folau neither quoted nor misquoted the Bible, however his beliefs are clearly religious (even if I don't care much for them myself).
4. The staggering non-sequitur.
 

Hillmanhunter1

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This is (apparently) a transcript of part of the proceedings at the Disciplinary Tribunal:

Q. Ms Castle, what if Mr Folau had photocopied passages from the Bible and simply posted that on his social media pages, would that have caused a problem for you?
A. I think it depends on which ones he – which pages he photocopied.
Q. If he photocopied the passages that are referred to in the posts, would that have caused a problem for you?
A. Yes, it would have.


All of which reminds me of this letter about some of the absurdities in the Bible, and which has been knocking around the Internet for a while:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:


  1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
  2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
  3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
  4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
  5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
  6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
  7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
  8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
  9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
  10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan.

(It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian :)
 

owedtojoy

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This is (apparently) a transcript of part of the proceedings at the Disciplinary Tribunal:

Q. Ms Castle, what if Mr Folau had photocopied passages from the Bible and simply posted that on his social media pages, would that have caused a problem for you?
A. I think it depends on which ones he – which pages he photocopied.
Q. If he photocopied the passages that are referred to in the posts, would that have caused a problem for you?
A. Yes, it would have.


All of which reminds me of this letter about some of the absurdities in the Bible, and which has been knocking around the Internet for a while:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:


  1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
  2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
  3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
  4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
  5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
  6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
  7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
  8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
  9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
  10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan.

(It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian :)
Trying to trivialise or disrespecting the Bible will not get Folau off the hook. In fact, insulting Folau and his co-coreligionists will not get him off the hook, either.

If Folau disrespected the Bible in his tweets, like calling it a load of garbage, it would probably have got him into worst trouble with more people. There are sincere believers among Rugby folk who deserve to have their views respected as much as gay people should not be disrespected for their sexual orientation e.g. Irish international Jacob Stockdale)..

That the Bible contains contradictions and farcical inconsistencies is not relevant. Tolerance has to be mutual - in fact, Jacob Stockdale is a good example, a committed Christian who respects gays.
 

Hillmanhunter1

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Jacob Stockdale is a good example, a committed Christian who respects gays.
Respecting gays is an entirely different matter to holding a religious belief that homosexuality is sinful.

Remember Folau has publically come to the defence of gay rights activist Magda Szubanski, calling for online trolls to stop their attacks on the comedian after she set up a rival multi-faith GoFundMe campaign:

“Hey everyone I totally agree with Julia Baird – please stop the anonymous online attacks on Magda Szubanski who has entered this debate very respectfully,” Folau wrote on Twitter.

That is respectful.

If Jacob Stockdale is a committed Christian then he must also believe that homosexuals will go to hell - that's axiomatic - but he choses not to state that in public, as is his right.
 

Clanrickard

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Its epic naivety. And you know it.

The issue isn't the act. You oppose gay marriage, the stance.
I don't oppose same sex marriage. People should be entitled to marry whom they like. I do understand other people have a different view.
 

owedtojoy

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Respecting gays is an entirely different matter to holding a religious belief that homosexuality is sinful.

Remember Folau has publically come to the defence of gay rights activist Magda Szubanski, calling for online trolls to stop their attacks on the comedian after she set up a rival multi-faith GoFundMe campaign:

“Hey everyone I totally agree with Julia Baird – please stop the anonymous online attacks on Magda Szubanski who has entered this debate very respectfully,” Folau wrote on Twitter.

That is respectful.

If Jacob Stockdale is a committed Christian then he must also believe that homosexuals will go to hell - that's axiomatic - but he choses not to state that in public, as is his right.
It is not a general Christian belief that gays "axiomatically" go to hell, neither Christ nor Saint Paul ever made that judgement.

Israel Folau may be a member of a bigoted sect that believe that (based on the Old Testament, not the New), but he is an outlier among Christians.


Instead of being smartass about it, maybe you could do with some real Christianity yourself.

PS I am an athiest who believes Jesus Christ was a man, like Buddha or Socrates, who had some wise and wonderful precepts And he never consigned gays to hell, or even mentioned them.
 

Hillmanhunter1

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Messages
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It is not a general Christian belief that gays "axiomatically" go to hell, neither Christ nor Saint Paul ever made that judgement.

Israel Folau may be a member of a bigoted sect that believe that (based on the Old Testament, not the New), but he is an outlier among Christians.


Instead of being smartass about it, maybe you could do with some real Christianity yourself.

PS I am an athiest who believes Jesus Christ was a man, like Buddha or Socrates, who had some wise and wonderful precepts And he never consigned gays to hell, or even mentioned them.
I think you may be one of those people who think that the New Testament is just the 4 Gospels.

You say, for example, that St Paul never condemned homosexuality - see Romans 1:26-27. Romans is part of the New Testament.

The controversial Instagram post that started this whole fiasco is based on St Paul's letter to the Corinthians 6:9-10. Corinthians is part of the New Testament.

Look also at Timothy 1:9-10. St Paul's letter to Timothy is also part of the New Testament.

Mr Folau's statement is very much in keeping with both the New and the Old Testaments.

While it may be that the Catholic Church, particularly under Francis, is in recent years more empathetic towards homosexuals, it's teaching on homosexual practices (that they are a sin) has not changed one iota. The consequence of unconfessed sin is damnation.

As for Mr Scockdale, I believe that he worships at the Banbridge Road Presbyterian Church, which is affiliated with the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. It is my understanding that the Presbyterian Church in Ireland holds that all homosexual activity is wrong and, quite controversially, that it may be that through counselling homosexuality can be "cured".
 

Peter72

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It is not a general Christian belief that gays "axiomatically" go to hell, neither Christ nor Saint Paul ever made that judgement.

Israel Folau may be a member of a bigoted sect that believe that (based on the Old Testament, not the New), but he is an outlier among Christians.


Instead of being smartass about it, maybe you could do with some real Christianity yourself.

PS I am an athiest who believes Jesus Christ was a man, like Buddha or Socrates, who had some wise and wonderful precepts And he never consigned gays to hell, or even mentioned them.
You know nothing of Paul? New Testament?
 

Clanrickard

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Do you object to UEFA having an anti racism policy?
Of course. UEFA's anti-racism policy is to stop players racially abusing others on the pitch and in the stands. FA has one for Gays too which I agree with.
 


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