• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

Israel losing battle in the media

L'Chaim

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
18,736


brughahaha

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
15,330
Opinions in Europe are of little significance as long as the prospect of and economic boycott can be held off

Of much greater worry to Israel is that (more slowly) they are also losing the argument , and power and infleuence in the US

Sharpevile happened in 1960 causing worldwide public outrage yet it took 20 years for the political classes to stop supporting South Africa's apartheid regime..... I believe last years Lebanon war (or maybe this years Gaza slaughter) will be seen as Israel's "Sharpeville moment"
 

Sam Lord

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
452
There's a very good article in today's Irish Times which says "Israelis feel they have completely lost the battle in the media. Ruth Zach, who will shortly be leaving the Israeli Embassy in Dublin, asks "What will it take for Europeans to ask the Palestinians also be held accountable?" It's a fair question

Israelis feel they have 'completely lost the battle' in the media - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 22, 2009
Yanshuf is winning it on the internet, however.

Seriously, it's like wondering why the regime in South Africa got all the bad press while the anti-apartheid momement was on the side of the angels.
 

FakeViking

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
8,932
Who was complaining recently about people numerous threads on the Palestinian occupation?

I suppose you didn't notce this one Settlers destroy trees on West Bank - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 22, 2009 on the same page, it's got this great line:

Militant settlers, who often act independently, in defiance of the official settler leadership, confirmed that a “price tag” policy exists under which revenge attacks will be carried out against Palestinians every time the government acts to remove outposts.
Really advanced in evolutionary terms, aren't you lot?
 

Verhofstadt

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
6,037
Website
********************
Israel doesn't help itself by aggressively counter spinning against any vaguely critical reporting and blindly denying any wrongdoing ..ever.

Considering the money they spend on media manipulation they are not getting much bang for their buck.

Israel purport to be a modern liberal western democracy thus are they held to a higher standard than terrorists like hamas.. simply put I expect better from Israel.
 

Stendec

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
44
Opinions in Europe are of little significance as long as the prospect of and economic boycott can be held off

Of much greater worry to Israel is that (more slowly) they are also losing the argument , and power and infleuence in the US

Sharpevile happened in 1960 causing worldwide public outrage yet it took 20 years for the political classes to stop supporting South Africa's apartheid regime..... I believe last years Lebanon war (or maybe this years Gaza slaughter) will be seen as Israel's "Sharpeville moment"
good man your right there we should boycot the basterds til they leave them poor people in the gaza strip alone!!!
 

Stendec

Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
44
There's a very good article in today's Irish Times which says "Israelis feel they have completely lost the battle in the media. Ruth Zach, who will shortly be leaving the Israeli Embassy in Dublin, asks "What will it take for Europeans to ask the Palestinians also be held accountable?" It's a fair question

Israelis feel they have 'completely lost the battle' in the media - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 22, 2009
acountable for what??? building there houses under the isralei bombs???
 

L'Chaim

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
18,736
Well Hamas suicide bombers killed over 500 Israeli civilians. These attacks were usually in buses, bus stations, cafés and night clubs. Since 2001 they have launched over 8000 rocket and mortar attacks against Israeli towns and cities. The breakdown is...
2001 250
2002 300
2003 400
2004 1100
2005 420 (This is the year Israel withdrew from Gaza)
2006 1000 (This is the year Hamas took over Gaza)
2007 1500
2008 2300 (this was in the first five months leading up to the ceasefire).

Now as you can see that since Hamas took over in Gaza, after Israel pulled out, the rocket and mortar attacks increased dramatically. They also kidnapped an Israeli soldier and nobody knows if he's alive or dead or what condition he's being held in. And yet, so far in this thread nobody holds Hamas, who were elected by the palestinian people, responsible. Those rockets and morter attacks and suicide bomb attacks are completely ignored or forgotten about and Israel is being seen as the bad guys. I think the question 'what will it take for Europeans to ask the Palestinians to also be held accountable?' is a fair question. Israel's offensive in Gaza didn't just happen for no reason. The ceasefire was ending in December 2008 and Hamas said they were not going to extend it. They were already planning more kidnappings and they were digging tunnels into Israel during the ceasefire with the aim of kidnapping more Israelis.
 

amblincork

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
83
acountable for what??? building there houses under the isralei bombs???
Funnily enough it was the russian english tv channel RT who reported on Hamas chasing down and killing their PLO opponents after the Gaza cease fire. Irish and Uk tv seemed to have avoided the issue.
 

loaded32

Active member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
280
There's a very good article in today's Irish Times which says "Israelis feel they have completely lost the battle in the media. Ruth Zach, who will shortly be leaving the Israeli Embassy in Dublin, asks "What will it take for Europeans to ask the Palestinians also be held accountable?" It's a fair question

Israelis feel they have 'completely lost the battle' in the media - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 22, 2009
To answer your question, its like the Cuts, tax increases and now the McCarthy report here. People will just not accept an unequal resolution to the public finance mess. Thats why you hear and read about people demanding that the politicians and the wealthy take their fair share of the pain before they are prepared to accept their own share of it!

Can you relate to that? I for one have always denounce and Palestinian militant groups attacks on civillians....and on an equal basis I will also denounce the dispraportionate and wild attacks on Palestine, its children & civilians, Charitable Organisation compounds which housed Irish citizens also, by the IDF.

So, PART of the problem, in answer to your question is the continuous denial of wrong-doing by Israeli forces and administration and the blanket defence of their actions and ethos! You are a prime example of this. When Israeli people accept and denounce the war crimes and evil of its own forces, people will be more enclined to empathise with your greivances with the militant, disident Palestinians!
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,243
There's a very good article in today's Irish Times which says "Israelis feel they have completely lost the battle in the media. Ruth Zach, who will shortly be leaving the Israeli Embassy in Dublin, asks "What will it take for Europeans to ask the Palestinians also be held accountable?" It's a fair question

Israelis feel they have 'completely lost the battle' in the media - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 22, 2009
There's a very good reason why Israel has few friends in Europe's media. Think of Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, of Caana, of Beirut in 1980 and '81 when even water was turned off as a siege tactic, of Gaza last December, of the monstrous wall that cuts through Arab property, of the illegal settlements that are not only tolerated but quietly encouraged, of the thousands of deaths of children caught up in rioting because they live lives without hope in endless squalor. Then ask yourself why a country which purports to be a civilised, liberal democracy would inflict such misery on an entire people by the very weight of its military and financial superiority.

Israel, too, has had its share of the pain. But the behaviour of successive politicians, notably Begin, Sharon and Netenyahu has eroded almost all of the sympathy it enjoyed up to the early 1970s. The brutal, murderous over-reaction to specific events, or series of events – typified by the destruction in Gaza over Christmas – drove more nails into Israel's credibility coffin.

The atrocities committed by some sections of the IDF over the years are too numerous to mention. And to quote the excesses of militants as an excuse for such behaviour simply suggests that that is the level at which the country's morality is based.

Self defence is every nation's right. But repression and brutalisation, land-theft and mass murder, denial of basic human rights and the illegal expansion of settlements can never be dressed up as legitimate mechanisms for defence.

However good the propaganda machine in Israel thinks it is.
 

loaded32

Active member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
280
good man your right there we should boycot the basterds til they leave them poor people in the gaza strip alone!!!
Your quite right. I have personally campaigned in my locality for people to boycott Israeli goods after the Gazza attrocities. Starbucks and M&S for instance are big political donators to the Israeli Politik.

I wonder what Yanshuf and L'Chaim think of our minister for foreign affairs personally overseing the last big transportation fo aid to Palestine after the Gazza atrocities. They probably think it was an act of evil. My only wish is for him and his cabinet to grow more "jewels" and impose an economic sanction against Israel and expel the Israeli ambassador also, on foot of the Gazza attrocities and continued oppression of the Palestinian people and their terrortories!
 

L'Chaim

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
18,736
There's a very good reason why Israel has few friends in Europe's media. Think of Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, of Caana, of Beirut in 1980 and '81 when even water was turned off as a siege tactic, of Gaza last December, of the monstrous wall that cuts through Arab property, of the illegal settlements that are not only tolerated but quietly encouraged, of the thousands of deaths of children caught up in rioting because they live lives without hope in endless squalor. Then ask yourself why a country which purports to be a civilised, liberal democracy would inflict such misery on an entire people by the very weight of its military and financial superiority.

Israel, too, has had its share of the pain. But the behaviour of successive politicians, notably Begin, Sharon and Netenyahu has eroded almost all of the sympathy it enjoyed up to the early 1970s. The brutal, murderous over-reaction to specific events, or series of events – typified by the destruction in Gaza over Christmas – drove more nails into Israel's credibility coffin.

The atrocities committed by some sections of the IDF over the years are too numerous to mention. And to quote the excesses of militants as an excuse for such behaviour simply suggests that that is the level at which the country's morality is based.

Self defence is every nation's right. But repression and brutalisation, land-theft and mass murder, denial of basic human rights and the illegal expansion of settlements can never be dressed up as legitimate mechanisms for defence.

However good the propaganda machine in Israel thinks it is.
What land theft in Gaza? When israeli settlers were there up to 2005 they had bought the land and paid for it. Then when they were told to leave, the people of Gaza got all that land back for free and the properties that were built on it, all free. So free that they didn't even put a value on the properties and destroyed all of them. So what land theft are you talking about? The only land theft there was was the land that israelis paid for, when Arab landowners sold it to them and then the Jews were expelled and all their land became the property of Gaza. The land the Israelis bought in Gaza wasn't bought back from them.

And what denial of Human Rights are you talking about? All Israeli citizens in Israel, be they Jews, arabs, Christians etc. have the same equal rights, equal pay etc. And Jewish settlements (none in gaza) are not illegal. They are on Jewish owned land or lands that Jews have legitimate claims to. When both sides sit down and negotiate then all this can be sorted out and both sides will get some of what they want and not get some of what they want. That's compromise.

But look at the list of Hamas attacks from Gaza I listed. People don't hold the Palestinians to any responsibility for those. Over 8000 rocket/mortar attacks and suicide bomb attacks that killed over 500 Israeli civilians. Is it right to ignore all that just to point the finger at Israel, like you are doing? Somehow or other that's all Israel's fault. It's always justified and understandable why Israelis are attacked because those attacks are always in response to Israel's actions regarding settlements or security measures. But by using that logic Israel would be justified in bombing the sh*t out of Germany and Austria because of the Holocaust, or Rome for expelling the Jews from their homeland, most of Eastern Europe and Russia for the pogroms and aiding the Nazis etc. There could be a very long list of justified attacks by Israel if we used that logic. And yet for all that same logic, which could be used to justify such attacks, not one Jew ever blew himself up on a German bus.
 

loaded32

Active member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
280
What land theft in Gaza? When israeli settlers were there up to 2005 they had bought the land and paid for it. Then when they were told to leave, the people of Gaza got all that land back for free and the properties that were built on it, all free. So free that they didn't even put a value on the properties and destroyed all of them. So what land theft are you talking about? The only land theft there was was the land that israelis paid for, when Arab landowners sold it to them and then the Jews were expelled and all their land became the property of Gaza. The land the Israelis bought in Gaza wasn't bought back from them.

And what denial of Human Rights are you talking about? All Israeli citizens in Israel, be they Jews, arabs, Christians etc. have the same equal rights, equal pay etc. And Jewish settlements (none in gaza) are not illegal. They are on Jewish owned land or lands that Jews have legitimate claims to. When both sides sit down and negotiate then all this can be sorted out and both sides will get some of what they want and not get some of what they want. That's compromise.

But look at the list of Hamas attacks from Gaza I listed. People don't hold the Palestinians to any responsibility for those. Over 8000 rocket/mortar attacks and suicide bomb attacks that killed over 500 Israeli civilians. Is it right to ignore all that just to point the finger at Israel, like you are doing? Somehow or other that's all Israel's fault. It's always justified and understandable why Israelis are attacked because those attacks are always in response to Israel's actions regarding settlements or security measures. But by using that logic Israel would be justified in bombing the sh*t out of Germany and Austria because of the Holocaust, or Rome for expelling the Jews from their homeland, most of Eastern Europe and Russia for the pogroms and aiding the Nazis etc. There could be a very long list of justified attacks by Israel if we used that logic. And yet for all that same logic, which could be used to justify such attacks, not one Jew ever blew himself up on a German bus.
You further prove our points with every post!!!!
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,243
What land theft in Gaza?

And what denial of Human Rights are you talking about? All Israeli citizens in Israel, be they Jews, arabs, Christians etc. have the same equal rights, equal pay etc. And Jewish settlements (none in gaza) are not illegal. They are on Jewish owned land or lands that Jews have legitimate claims to.

But look at the list of Hamas attacks from Gaza I listed. People don't hold the Palestinians to any responsibility for those. Over 8000 rocket/mortar attacks and suicide bomb attacks that killed over 500 Israeli civilians.
I was referring to the lands seized in the 1967 war, over which Israel has no legitimate rights.

Within Israel citizens have equal rights, for the most part, as is their due in any democracy. On occupied lands, the story is very different, as you know well. The illegal settlements continue to expand on lands that are in dispute. 'Claiming' rights to land is not legitimate ownership.

Nobody supports the repulsive practise of suicide bombing aimed at civilian targets or of targeting civilian non-combatants by rocket fire. But there is little point in expecting a hugely militarily inferior enemy to use the same tactics as a well-armed and well-trained army. Guerilla warfare is all they know. Repeated, disproportionate over-reaction feeds the fire that burns in the hearts of Palestinians and delays further any hope of lasting peace.
 

Tarobot

New member
Joined
Jul 18, 2009
Messages
1
The land the Israelis bought in Gaza wasn't bought back from them.
You do know there's a difference between owning land as an individual and deciding to declare that land to belong to the country of your nationality?

Can I, as an Irish person, go to Israel, buy up a few acres and put up an Irish flag on it? Sounds perfectly logical, according to your logic.

And what denial of Human Rights are you talking about? All Israeli citizens in Israel, be they Jews, arabs, Christians etc. have the same equal rights, equal pay etc.
Um, you're talking about the country where Arab parties were banned for the last general election. We are talking about the same Israel, right?

And Jewish settlements (none in gaza) are not illegal. They are on Jewish owned land or lands that Jews have legitimate claims to.
See above for individual ownership of land vs transferring said land to another country!

Hmm...legitimate claims...legitimate according to the UN? No. So legitimate according to WHO exactly?

That's compromise.
And what exactly is Israel willing to compromise? Zip.

But look at the list of Hamas attacks from Gaza I listed. People don't hold the Palestinians to any responsibility for those.
This is where your argument really goes belly up. I wholeheartedly condemn Hamas and think they are utter scum of the earth. I also happen to think the same of the IDF - can you understand that?

Also, do you really want me to post up the figures on casualties on the arab-Israeli conflict?

Over 8000 rocket/mortar attacks and suicide bomb attacks that killed over 500 Israeli civilians. Is it right to ignore all that just to point the finger at Israel, like you are doing?
Also, do you really want me to post up the figures on casualties on the arab-Israeli conflict?

Somehow or other that's all Israel's fault.
Jesus, can you just get OUT of your victim mentality? No one is saying it's ALL Israel's fault but to be honest, you guys are the ones that hold the balance of power and get to decide how this ends, or if it ends at all. You have the Palestinians' backs up against a wall and to be very honest, if I were a young Palestinian, I'm pretty sure I would be very open to talk of suicide bombing and killing as many Israel's as possible. It's about breaking the circle of violence. That's the bottom line.

And yet for all that same logic, which could be used to justify such attacks, not one Jew ever blew himself up on a German bus.
No you just take it out on the Palestinians instead.

You see Germany has one of the largest, most modern armies in the world. And the Palestinians don't. Guess which one Israel chooses to pick on. No prizes.
 

L'Chaim

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
18,736
I was referring to the lands seized in the 1967 war, over which Israel has no legitimate rights.

Within Israel citizens have equal rights, for the most part, as is their due in any democracy. On occupied lands, the story is very different, as you know well. The illegal settlements continue to expand on lands that are in dispute. 'Claiming' rights to land is not legitimate ownership.

Nobody supports the repulsive practise of suicide bombing aimed at civilian targets or of targeting civilian non-combatants by rocket fire. But there is little point in expecting a hugely militarily inferior enemy to use the same tactics as a well-armed and well-trained army. Guerilla warfare is all they know. Repeated, disproportionate over-reaction feeds the fire that burns in the hearts of Palestinians and delays further any hope of lasting peace.
But Israel has legitimate rights over the territories it won in the 67 war. The Arabs lost that land by participating in a failed attempt at genocide in 1967. And don't forget that Jordan was illegally occupying that land previous to that. In armed conflict it's always the victor that determines the new borders (especially when the armed conflict was not of their making, as is the case with Israel in 1967). America annexed areas of Canada and Mexico. Russia expanded all over the place after multiple wars with its neighbours. Chile's entire North used to belong to Peru and Bolivia. Europe's borders changed drastically over the course of God knows how many wars. Italy annexed part of Austria. This is the way things work out in war. Yet when it comes to Israel there's a completely different standard. With the Israeli situation you get the victors suing for peace and the defeated demanding total surrender. And people find this different standard Israel is being held to acceptable. It beggars belief. Now if Israel agrees a peace deal it will be the first time in Palestinian history that the palestinians will have their own independent state. In their entire history they have never had that. They never even had a chance of it when they were under Arab rule. In their entire history Israel is their only chance of having a Palestinian state.

And "claiming rights to land is not legitimate ownership"? But that's exactly what the palestinians are doing too. They are claiming rights to land that they never had sovereignty over, and up until 1968 they never even claimed was theirs. Israeli claims to that land go back much further than that and Jewish claims to it goes back even further. The Palestinian leadership in the last 60 years had nothing to offer accept corruption, tyranny, religious intolerance and conflict. For over three generations they have rejected every offer of independence, instead choosing destruction and despair, rather than except any settlement that didn't include the extinction of Israel. Despite being the most aided people, their leaders never chose to invest in the building of a nation over lining their Swiss bank accounts with billions and billions of aid money.

As for your comment "Guerrilla warfare is all they know". I find that unbelievable. They get hundreds of millions every year to buy arms and they are trained and have weapons supplied by Iran and Syria. You probably don't even realise how racist your comment is. You treat the Palestinians with a racism that they can't be held responsible for what they do because they don't know any better. This type of racism is the worst kind of racism because it excuses all sorts of behaviour, because the people carrying them out don't know any better and shouldn't be held responsible like normal human beings.
 
Last edited:


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top