Israel proves it prefers Land to Peace

johntrenchard

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Where as you are contributing to a solution by posting on P.ie ... get over yourself:rolleyes:

As for being an ignoramus ... i notice how you singularly failed to point out where Im incorrect

As for History ...hmmm In the last 5 years , we have Israels attack on the mainly civillian population of South lebanon in 2006 followed by its equally barbaric operation in Gaza , a population it had imprisoned , starved , sonic boomed and degraded for years beforehand ,its massive overuse of force on the high seas resulting in 9 further casualties , its publicised extra judicial killings around the globe , its daily humiliation of Palestinians in the West Bank where women have been forced to give birth in the baking sun while sneering IDF soldiers look on, where people are denied medical treatment on a whim or forced into a 50 mile detour in ambulances across non paved roads because the roads are reserved for Israelis ... the perpetual internationally illegal land grabs , the daily torture of children , the internment of adults and the sundering of families be3cause of race and religious laws

But yet despite all that some how Im an an ignoramus for calling Israel a savage , brutal viscous greedy supremacist country akin to its former good friend apartheid South Africa

Away and educate yourself ya gobshiite
go read up on the 1948 war.

then go read up on the 1967 war.

then go read up on the 1973 yom kippur war.

there's a common thread in all of it.
 


bayern

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The building of new settlements West Bank prove they are not interested in peace but the capture of more Palestinian land, this will only change if the Americans put political and economic pressure on them, but the strength of the Jewish lobby in the US means no administration will dare to upset the Isrealis.
 

johntrenchard

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think its time for a fisking.

Where as you are contributing to a solution by posting on P.ie ... get over yourself:rolleyes:

As for being an ignoramus ... i notice how you singularly failed to point out where Im incorrect

As for History ...hmmm In the last 5 years , we have Israels attack on the mainly civillian population of South lebanon in 2006
Oh right. so they just decided one day, in their government to
"yes, lets go bomb some civilians just for the hell of it"

Do you realise how idiotic this statement is? Do you have ANY knowledge of the 2006 conflict?

Obviously not.

followed by its equally barbaric operation in Gaza , a population it had imprisoned , starved , sonic boomed and degraded for years beforehand
oh right. So again , the Israeli government - without anything else going on - nothing - according to your world view - just decided out of the blue to attack Gaza?

Staggering. Your idiot level has gone up a notch or two.

,its massive overuse of force on the high seas resulting in 9 further casualties
Yeah, i'm sure Israeli commandos should just take a beating from Islamists with iron bars. Just sit there and take it , and accept death gladly.

Suuurrrre...

, its publicised extra judicial killings around the globe ,
Of course, the folks that were killing Israelis arent subject to any court of law - no sir! we just want the Israelis to sit there and take it. Like the good Jews that they are.

Thats what you really want isn't it?

The rest of your stuff is just bollocks. You've played your cards on here.. and yes you are an ignoramous. You have ZERO understanding of the situation and yes, you are part of the problem.
 

johntrenchard

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The building of new settlements West Bank prove they are not interested in peace but the capture of more Palestinian land, this will only change if the Americans put political and economic pressure on them, but the strength of the Jewish lobby in the US means no administration will dare to upset the Isrealis.
I agree with you there. the settlements are a problem. There needs to be absolutely 100 per cent clear and firm decisions made to BOTH sides - along the lines of "here's the border. thats it. deal with it."


the demarcation lines need to be set. permanently. with a big fck off wall between both sides. and only then will you get a solution. after 60 years this is getting ridiculous. and tiresome.
 

Hewson

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go read up on the 1948 war.

then go read up on the 1967 war.

then go read up on the 1973 yom kippur war.

there's a common thread in all of it.
There is. The common thread is the imposition of a State by outside forces on land seized from its inhabitants and forced to migrate and live in refugee camps. Are you suggesting that if a knock came to your door some Monday morning and a gentleman from Normandy asked you to shift your belongings to the neighbouring county because his ancestors had a claim on the land your house is built on . . . you'd move, of course.

Wouldn't you? Common threads and all that . . .
 

yanshuf

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I can see how historical facts are twisted here:

1. Hizballah attacked Israel, with no provocation. They hid missiles with which they attacked Israeli civilians (a fact that is always forgotten, inadvertently of course) inside residential areas in villages, beneath houses!!! I actually refuse to forget these facts.

2. Another fact I refuse to forget is that the PA got control over the Gaza strip, first used its infrastructure to attack Israeli civilians, and then when we decided to sthnically cleanse the strip from Jews, suddenly the Hamas took control, and used the strip as a launching base for their missiles.

Then we saw FATAH members running to Israel (yes, the barbaric, satanic, villain, terrorist etc.) so they woudn't be slaughtered (in the actual meaning of the word) by Hamas operatives. The ones that were not that lucky, like the one who was thrown from the 15th floor, are part of their memories now.

Now what did the Hamas decide to do? yes to continue launching missiles, to execute its Charter - the destruction of Israel, that's right.

3. I refuse to forget that back in 2000 the PA was offered a 97% of the territories and rejected it because of the whims of Arafat. Instead they orchestrated a well-predetermined violence to terrorise us.

Then we started building the fence and got more protective about ourselves.

The Barbarians are the so called "Palestinians", and they are waiting for the next chance they have to plan a pogrom!
 

johntrenchard

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There is. The common thread is the imposition of a State by outside forces on land seized from its inhabitants and forced to migrate and live in refugee camps. Are you suggesting that if a knock came to your door some Monday morning and a gentleman from Normandy asked you to shift your belongings to the neighbouring county because his ancestors had a claim on the land your house is built on . . . you'd move, of course.

Wouldn't you? Common threads and all that . . .
time to move on...

the arabs tried to destroy israel 3 times. in 3 wars. and then a terrorist war. they've failed. time to move on is all i say.

they lost.

nobody complains about the plight of the Sudetenland Germans nowadays do they?

2 to 3 million expelled post WW2 from lands that were in German hands for over 1,000 years.

Nobody complains about the right of Prussians for their "right of return" to lands that are now in Poland do they?

I'm sorry - that is the outcome of warfare. They - the Palestinians - should suck it up and accept that they lost. Period. Then we can all move on.

They have a Palestinian state already - it's called Jordan. They can move to that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Expulsions_and_resettlement_after_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

the Germans have accepted this defeat. they aren't blowing crap up because of a perceived "injustice".
They lost - and they accept it. Thats the difference.
 

yanshuf

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There is. The common thread is the imposition of a State by outside forces on land seized from its inhabitants and forced to migrate and live in refugee camps. Are you suggesting that if a knock came to your door some Monday morning and a gentleman from Normandy asked you to shift your belongings to the neighbouring county because his ancestors had a claim on the land your house is built on . . . you'd move, of course.
Wrong on all levels:
The Jews settled on land they bought!

Most of the current Arabs came to this land just like the Jews came there, and wer looking for better jobs.

The Arabs never really had a country called Palestine, as the so called Palestinians" were never a nation. They want a land today, but they didn't control this land as a nation.

The Jews have an internationally recognised right to be in this land, and the right to settle in it, not because of a devine connection, but because of a historical one, that the League of Nations, the former UN, recognised.

The fact that they ran away back in 1948 should be addressed by the Arab countries that invaded the Mandate territory, and wanted to throw the Jews to the sea.
 

johntrenchard

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I can see how historical facts are twisted here:

1. Hizballah attacked Israel, with no provocation. They hid missiles with which they attacked Israeli civilians (a fact that is always forgotten, inadvertently of course) inside residential areas in villages, beneath houses!!! I actually refuse to forget these facts.

2. Another fact I refuse to forget is that the PA got control over the Gaza strip, first used its infrastructure to attack Israeli civilians, and then when we decided to sthnically cleanse the strip from Jews, suddenly the Hamas took control, and used the strip as a launching base for their missiles.

Then we saw FATAH members running to Israel (yes, the barbaric, satanic, villain, terrorist etc.) so they woudn't be slaughtered (in the actual meaning of the word) by Hamas operatives. The ones that were not that lucky, like the one who was thrown from the 15th floor, are part of their memories now.

Now what did the Hamas decide to do? yes to continue launching missiles, to execute its Charter - the destruction of Israel, that's right.

3. I refuse to forget that back in 2000 the PA was offered a 97% of the territories and rejected it because of the whims of Arafat. Instead they orchestrated a well-predetermined violence to terrorise us.

Then we started building the fence and got more protective about ourselves.

The Barbarians are the so called "Palestinians", and they are waiting for the next chance they have to plan a pogrom!
Thanks for the contribution.

I think most folks , or rather , i would HOPE that most folks on p.ie would be aware of those facts. Hence i did not need to trot them out again. If you arent aware of these facts, then please do a bit of research.
 

Hewson

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I can see how historical facts are twisted here:

1. Hizballah attacked Israel, with no provocation. They hid missiles with which they attacked Israeli civilians (a fact that is always forgotten, inadvertently of course) inside residential areas in villages, beneath houses!!! I actually refuse to forget these facts.

2. Another fact I refuse to forget is that the PA got control over the Gaza strip, first used its infrastructure to attack Israeli civilians, and then when we decided to sthnically cleanse the strip from Jews, suddenly the Hamas took control, and used the strip as a launching base for their missiles.

Then we saw FATAH members running to Israel (yes, the barbaric, satanic, villain, terrorist etc.) so they woudn't be slaughtered (in the actual meaning of the word) by Hamas operatives. The ones that were not that lucky, like the one who was thrown from the 15th floor, are part of their memories now.

Now what did the Hamas decide to do? yes to continue launching missiles, to execute its Charter - the destruction of Israel, that's right.

3. I refuse to forget that back in 2000 the PA was offered a 97% of the territories and rejected it because of the whims of Arafat. Instead they orchestrated a well-predetermined violence to terrorise us.

Then we started building the fence and got more protective about ourselves.

The Barbarians are the so called "Palestinians", and they are waiting for the next chance they have to plan a pogrom!
That post is a wonderful example of Israeli bunker-thinking. It's why peace is still an illusion, and will continue to be, and why moderates like Mahmoud Abbas always lose out in the end to the vagaries of the loony Israeli right, talking about peace and two-state solutions while they continue the land-grab.

Hopeless, really.
 

Riadach

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Wrong on all levels:
The Jews settled on land they bought!
Who did they buy the land from? You're not pretending that in the West Bank, the settlers bought them from local Arabs.

I'll give you a clue though, who owns 50% of all land in the West Bank?
 

johntrenchard

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Who did they buy the land from? You're not pretending that in the West Bank, the settlers bought them from local Arabs.

I'll give you a clue though, who owns 50% of all land in the West Bank?
yes they did. pre 1948.

the arabs believed that they would be able to conquer the lands back. and thus make a tidy profit via the 1948 invasion.

do read up on it
the propaganda from arab states about this was ferocious in the run up to the 1948 invasion.
 

brughahaha

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Jun 1, 2009
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think its time for a fisking.



Oh right. so they just decided one day, in their government to
"yes, lets go bomb some civilians just for the hell of it"

Do you realise how idiotic this statement is? Do you have ANY knowledge of the 2006 conflict?

Obviously not.
One wonders which is greater, your stupidity or your arrogance ...close call

I am aware that over 1000 civillians died as Israel decided to use a sledge hammer to crack a nut and display its total disregard for non israeli human life ...again




oh right. So again , the Israeli government - without anything else going on - nothing - according to your world view - just decided out of the blue to attack Gaza?

Staggering. Your idiot level has gone up a notch or two.



Yeah, i'm sure Israeli commandos should just take a beating from Islamists with iron bars. Just sit there and take it , and accept death gladly.

Suuurrrre...


Yes your utter contempt for human life and justification for Israeli barbarity is indeed surreal ... as long as your ok eh?

In that incidence the UN has found Israel in total violation of International law (again) and contemptuous of human rights .... on the other hand you can believe the spin of a country whose army oversaw the Shabra and Shantilla massacre, who violates more UN resolutions than any other and in the last 48 hours has proven it has no desire for a peaceful resolution by resuming its illegal land grabs

Tough choice who to believe ... the UN or a bunch of religous zealots engaged in land theft and ethnic cleansing




Of course, the folks that were killing Israelis arent subject to any court of law - no sir! we just want the Israelis to sit there and take it. Like the good Jews that they are.

Thats what you really want isn't it?

The rest of your stuff is just bollocks. You've played your cards on here.. and yes you are an ignoramous. You have ZERO understanding of the situation and yes, you are part of the problem.
All reported daily in that well known anti Israeli paper Haaretz :rolleyes: The daily torture ,humiliation ,murder and low level ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is reported ...... and you know this because if you could refute my list of Israeli barbarity you would
So devoid of a single credible argument you resort to the adhominem and anti semetic innuendo

The problem is racist and colonial loving right wing nutters like yourself who dont believe Israel should be made obey the basic laws of human decency that the rest of us do

The point stands for any that doubted
Israel is a rogue state which by its refusal to halt settlement building has proven the lie used by zionists like yourself that Israel seeks peace
It should follow its former friend apartheid South Africa into International Pariah status ...... none of your inane ramblings alter that
 

Riadach

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yes they did. pre 1948.

the arabs believed that they would be able to conquer the lands back. and thus make a tidy profit via the 1948 invasion.

do read up on it
the propaganda from arab states about this was ferocious in the run up to the 1948 invasion.
I'm talking post-1948 here, hence the term settlers. Settlement prior to 1948 in the West Bank was minimal. The land currently in possession of settlers was not bought from Arabs. It was land taken over by the Israeli state after, confiscated because it was 'out of use' (or conveniently judged to be out of use) or because it was unregistered (coincidentally all registrations were frozen in 1968, I wonder why?). The land was then appropriated by the Israeli government to deal out to Jewish settlers as they pleased. And of course, if they could not find that land of particular jewish signficance could be manipulated in such a fashion, they merely declared it an archaeological dig, and placed jewish settlers as custodians. Custodians require big apartments, motorways, swimming pools and schools, don't ya know?
 

Rocky

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To be fair if Abbas entered negotiations any sooner the Palestinians would have lost East Jerusalem before any talks came to any sort of agreement. The settlements are the same sort of millstone around Abbas neck. By the time any agreement might be concluded the territory on offer might be drastically smaller than what was in Palestinian hands before talks began. There is also the facter of Isreals inevitable security zone. Any eventual settlement will not only strip the Palestinians of land occupied by settlements but in all likihood a large security buffer zone around those territories too.

If Abbas continues talks he is left fighting for a Palestinian state, minus land that Jewish settlements are on, minus a multiple of that for an Isreali security zone and minus East Jersulem. Without preconditions for talks Abbas is left with the burden of being the one identified by Palestinian radicals, who themselves have nothing to contribute, as being the person who lost both East Jerusalem and most of the remaining Westbank.

Now that Abbas looks like he is backing out, as he should, let see what the radicals can offer in terms of a 'vistory over Isreal'. Both Hamas and Hezzbollah serve an agenda that has little or nothing to do with a free Palestinian state. As organisations they exist to further Irans percieved foothold in the region and as the focus for cheerleading idiots. Proof of that is the fact that both have removed themsevles from the possibilty of any agreement with Isreal, the result of which means that Abbas is left holding the can for the rights and future of Palestinians. An unenviable position made harder and near impossible by extremist on all sides.
Israel is wrong to not contiune the freeze and I can largely understand Abbas if he does pull out, but where does that leave us. Hamas and Hezzbollah offer nothing as you say and all we are left with what we have had for the last 60 years, which isn't good enough. Both Palestinians and Israelis need peace.

I still hope some deal can be made on this that will allow talks to contiune. Even if it just a complete fudge which allows Abbas and Netanyahu to both save face. There is no other option but talks so every effort should be made to ensure that they do contiune.
 

kenneth

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Hamas were sent into political isolation for launching a campaign of whole scale slaughter against Palestinian security forces. Both before and after that fact their stance on Isreal was well established. Hamas remain in isolation because they have nothing new to say and nothing at all to contribute towards peace.


They're kind of like Israel so aren't they?
 

stoichkov

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johntrenchard and yanshuf are both absolutely hopeless.

it's almost as if they are pro-palestinian plants dedicated to making the pro-israeli side look even more numbskulled.
 

kenneth

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johntrenchard and yanshuf are both absolutely hopeless.

it's almost as if they are pro-palestinian plants dedicated to making the pro-israeli side look even more numbskulled.


That's them summed up pretty well. It's impossble to take seriously anyone who calls the settlement's legal because the lon once said so and that Palestinians should move to Jordan as if it's some sort of reasonable conflict resolution.
 


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