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Israel's Role in World Conflicts: Georgia, Darfur, Kashmir. Brzezinski's Attack Dogs


A

Asi-Irish

Hi. Anyone who wants to rant about anti-semitism, please get it over with now, so anyone who wants to debate the issue in question can do so in a rational manner. My PM box is open for Zionist hate mail, feel free to PM me!

Now, on to the topic.

Most people know that Israel played a significant role in the recent Russia-Georgia conflict:

Since 2000, Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in arms and combat training to Georgia. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, antiaircraft systems, automatic turrets for armored vehicles, electronic equipment and remotely piloted aircraft. These sales were authorized by the Israeli defense ministry (Arie Egozi, "War in Georgia: The Israeli connection," Ynet, 10 August 2008).

Training also involved officers from Israel's Shin Bet secret service -- which has for decades carried out extrajudicial executions and torture of Palestinians in the occupied territories -- the Israeli police, and the country's major arms companies Elbit and Rafael.

Israel's Role in the Russia-Georgia Conflict | Tacoma SDS

It seems they are also playing a significant role in the Darfur crisis:

Libyan President Muammar Gadhafi said Israel is to blame for the crisis in Darfur.

Gadhafi, president of the African Union, said Tuesday that "foreign forces," including Israel, are to blame for the genocide in the Sudan region.

"We discovered that some of the main leaders of the Darfur rebels have opened offices in Tel Aviv and hold meetings with the military there to add fuel to the conflict fire," the Libyan state news agency Jana quoted Gadhafi as saying, Ha'aretz reported.

Gadhafi: Israel responsible for Darfur crisis | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

More details on the role Israel is playing in Darfur (including hosting offices for the Darfur rebels and giving at least 600 refugees from Darfur residency & work permits) is available on line.

After the Mumbai attacks, it became clear that Israel's Mossad is also involved in the Kashmir dispute. Israel sent advisors to India after the attacks to assist in their operations in Kashmir. The India Intelligence Agency, RAW, has a long established relationship with Mossad. See below for more info on the growing ties between Israel & India:

A Rediff story in 2003 revealed that the Indian external intelligence agency R&AW had clandestine links with the Mossad, Israel's external intelligence agency. When R&AW was founded in 1968 by Rameshwar Nath Kao, he was advised by the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to cultivate links with Mossad.

This was suggested as a countermeasure to military links between that of a hostile Pakistan and China, as well as with North Korea. Israel was also concerned that Pakistani army officers were training Libyans and Iranians in handling Chinese and North Korean military equipment. Though India planned to bomb Kahuta, as in Operation Opera, where Israel destroyed an Iraqi nuclear reactor, the plan was later dropped.

The Pakistanis eventually started to suspect intelligence relations between India and Israel resulting in a threat to Pakistani security. When young Israeli tourists began visiting the Kashmir valley in the early nineties, Pakistan suspected they were disguised Israeli army officers there to help Indian security forces with counter-terrorism operations. Pakistani intelligence inspired a series of terrorist attacks on the unsuspecting Israeli tourists with one slain and another kidnapped. Intense pressure from the Kashmiri Muslim diaspora in the United States led to their release.

On November 10th 2008, Indian military officials are expected to visit Israel to to discuss joint weapons development projects, additional sales of Israeli equipment to the Indian military, and counter-terrorism strategies. The new round of talks are seen as a significant expansion in the Indian-Israeli strategic partnership.

In 2008, Israel surpassed Russia as the largest arms supplier to India.

India?Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beginning just before Obama's election, experts began to discuss the plans of Obama's foreign affairs advisor, Brzezinski, for securing US world dominance.

The general jist of it is that Brzezinski (who masterminded the downfall of the Soviet Empire through US support of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan), is planning to do the same with both China and Russia, drawing them into proxy conflicts.

Israel's support for Georgia, the Darfur rebels and the Indians would seem to support this theory.

Discuss...
 

iartaoiseach

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'Libyan President Muammar Gadhafi said Israel is to blame for the crisis in Darfur'


I think that chinas support for Bashir might have something to do with the continuing slaughter in Darfur. But then again Gadaffi is a sane and balanced commentator so you could be on to something.
 

Elvis Parsley

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Maybe you should have read the next sentence, i.e. foreign forces, including Israel.
We all know about China's involvement
 
A

Asi-Irish

How very well informed you are... well done, you've managed to internalize the "China is wrong because China does business with Sudan, and the Sudanese use China's money to murder innocent people" line.

Now. I don't particularly like the Chinese or Sudanese governments. But that doesn't stop me from looking a little deeper.

I have a Jewish source for you on the links between the Darfur Rebels and Israel, since you don't trust Gadhafi (BTW he's probably a more reliable source than anyone inside the US, British or Israeli governments).


The leader of one of the rebel groups in Sudan's Darfur region recently visited Israel to discuss with a senior Israeli official the situation in Sudan.

Abdel Wahid al-Nur is the head of the Sudan Liberation Movement. While in Israel, he met with the senior official and discussed with him the ongoing conflict in Sudan.
................

In the past, he has spoken in favor of establishing diplomatic ties between Sudan and Israel, and a year ago, he even announced that his movement was opening an office in Tel Aviv, staffed by Sudanese refugees who found asylum in Israel after fleeing the massacres committed by Bashir's forces in Darfur.
.................

Israel currently has more than 600 Darfur refugees, and Ehud Olmert's government decided to grant them all asylum and work permits.



Darfur rebel leader visited Israel - Haaretz - Israel News
 

iartaoiseach

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How very well informed you are... well done, you've managed to internalize the "China is wrong because China does business with Sudan, and the Sudanese use China's money to murder innocent people" line.

Now. I don't particularly like the Chinese or Sudanese governments. But that doesn't stop me from looking a little deeper.

I have a Jewish source for you on the links between the Darfur Rebels and Israel, since you don't trust Gadhafi (BTW he's probably a more reliable source than anyone inside the US, British or Israeli governments).


The leader of one of the rebel groups in Sudan's Darfur region recently visited Israel to discuss with a senior Israeli official the situation in Sudan.

Abdel Wahid al-Nur is the head of the Sudan Liberation Movement. While in Israel, he met with the senior official and discussed with him the ongoing conflict in Sudan.
................

In the past, he has spoken in favor of establishing diplomatic ties between Sudan and Israel, and a year ago, he even announced that his movement was opening an office in Tel Aviv, staffed by Sudanese refugees who found asylum in Israel after fleeing the massacres committed by Bashir's forces in Darfur.
.................

Israel currently has more than 600 Darfur refugees, and Ehud Olmert's government decided to grant them all asylum and work permits.



Darfur rebel leader visited Israel - Haaretz - Israel News
I don't know the whole story re Darfur but i doubt you or anyone else on this site does either- unless you are posting from inside Sudan/Darfur maybe. As for reliability of US/ britain I never said I considered them reliable. what I do think though is that the sudanese government and their associated militias are commiting something tantamount to genocide in Darfur and in that context fair play to Israel for accepting refugees small amount as it is at 600. I'll probably get the usual israeli genocide in palestine argument but thats for another discussion. I have a feeling that your problem is that it is Israel that is involved at all, not what they are doing - unless you support the Bashir government position. i don't agree with everything Israel does however a small bit of balance wouldn't go amiss but I suppose that'd be a bit much to expect in any post involving Israel and muslims. I don't profess to be an expert but I do my best to read up on history and I try to stay objective there are only various shades of grey when it comes to any conflict - very rarely is one side right. even WW2 history has proven this.
 

iartaoiseach

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Maybe you should have read the next sentence, i.e. foreign forces, including Israel.
We all know about China's involvement
The one I quoted is fairly blatant. Gadhafi blamed Israel. I'm impressed with your ability to summarise though.
 
A

Asi-Irish

You're right. My problem is that Israel are involved at all. They may be doing some good, but if they are, they are doing it to further their own agenda.

In fact, if they are supporting a rebel group, and the result turns out to be a prolonged conflict with even more civilian casualties, then they are making the situation worse.

I also think the situation in Darfur is pretty close to genocide. Then again, so was the situation in Rwanda.

What did the West do then? Nothing.

In fact, it seems the West never intervened to halt a genocide.
 

Fear Dorcha

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I don't know the whole story re Darfur but i doubt you or anyone else on this site does either- unless you are posting from inside Sudan/Darfur maybe. As for reliability of US/ britain I never said I considered them reliable. what I do think though is that the sudanese government and their associated militias are commiting something tantamount to genocide in Darfur and in that context fair play to Israel for accepting refugees small amount as it is at 600. I'll probably get the usual israeli genocide in palestine argument but thats for another discussion. I have a feeling that your problem is that it is Israel that is involved at all, not what they are doing - unless you support the Bashir government position. i don't agree with everything Israel does however a small bit of balance wouldn't go amiss but I suppose that'd be a bit much to expect in any post involving Israel and muslims. I don't profess to be an expert but I do my best to read up on history and I try to stay objective there are only various shades of grey when it comes to any conflict - very rarely is one side right. even WW2 history has proven this.
Slightly off the main subject but I find it incredible that the ICC criminalised Bashir. Not that he doesn't deserve it but in terms of what has now happened in retrospect vis'a'vis the flight of NGOs and UN organisations from Darfur. Did they not see that this might happen or is there someting more sinister afoot? Does anyone know who the leading players in implementing the ICC decision/ruling were or their possible motivations?
 

Thac0man

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Basic scape goating of the jews to give an Muslim nation, carrying out genocide against Muslims of the wrong colour, a free pass. Thats what scape goating is for.

Its rather astonishing that the continued genocide and ethnic cleansing being carried out against the Darfurians continues to evoke little or no response from the wider Muslim world, except to support Sudans actions. This stunt by Gadaffi simply copperfastens support for Sudan by making the people of Darfur, who are still dying in the thousands, accomplices or dupes of the hated jews.
 

iartaoiseach

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You're right. My problem is that Israel are involved at all. They may be doing some good, but if they are, they are doing it to further their own agenda.

In fact, if they are supporting a rebel group, and the result turns out to be a prolonged conflict with even more civilian casualties, then they are making the situation worse.

I also think the situation in Darfur is pretty close to genocide. Then again, so was the situation in Rwanda.

What did the West do then? Nothing.

In fact, it seems the West never intervened to halt a genocide.
you are right on the wests cowardly response to genocide- Samantha Power has comprehensively nailed western policy on that. The rebel group in Darfur seems to me to be responding to the Janjaweed atacks - I may be wrong on that. I doubt that the rebel presence is what is causing the conflict - conflict or genocide? Every country has it's own agenda it's human nature - you also have your anti Israel one correct? I think you would be hard pushed to find a genuinely neutral country with the interests of people/victims at heart. we should however recognise that individuals Eg Dalliere of the UN in Rwanda do their best despite all the cynicism of govenments etc and we should give some credit when its due. we could go on about rights and wrongs all day and go round in circles that is what has the world in the mess it's in. I happen to believe - naively- that nationalism and religion cause way more harm than good and are used as excuses and justification for barbarity. for a species that is supposed to be the most intelligent of all we don't learn much from history.
 

iartaoiseach

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Slightly off the main subject but I find it incredible that the ICC criminalised Bashir. Not that he doesn't deserve it but in terms of what has now happened in retrospect vis'a'vis the flight of NGOs and UN organisations from Darfur. Did they not see that this might happen or is there someting more sinister afoot? Does anyone know who the leading players in implementing the ICC decision/ruling were or their possible motivations?
A pathetic attempt to be seen to do something IMO. there is a history of this form the UN and all other so-called world organisations. incredible cynicism. Nothing new unfortunately and not the last time either.
 

swansandtyphus

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China and the US are currently contesting control of the globe.
China is filling the void left in Africa following the exit of the European colonists and evaporation of Soviet might, which left various tin pot dictators and failed states high and dry. China is using Venezeula, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Korea to tie down the Americans. America resonds by stirring up trouble in Tibet and Burma.
 

Thac0man

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In fact, it seems the West never intervened to halt a genocide.
Well the term genocide, even in Darfur, may be again mis-applied. Its more like ethnic cleansing. The West intervened in Bosnia and Kosovo to halt that. What did the Middle East ever do to stop ethnic cleansing? Of the Kurds in Iraq or the people of Darfur? Middle Eastern nations it seems fully support, and have done from the outset, the ethnic cleansing of Darfur. I doubt the international arrest warrent for Bashir will ever be enforced by a Muslim country.

The West must act in unison with the UN. In that, all nations share a responsibility, unless you are advocating unilateral military action by Western nations. Are you?
 
A

Asi-Irish

Basic scape goating of the jews to give an Muslim nation, carrying out genocide against Muslims of the wrong colour, a free pass. Thats what scape goating is for.

Its rather astonishing that the continued genocide and ethnic cleansing being carried out against the Darfurians continues to evoke little or no response from the wider Muslim world, except to support Sudans actions. This stunt by Gadaffi simply copperfastens support for Sudan by making the people of Darfur, who are still dying in the thousands, accomplices or dupes of the hated jews.
I am not trying to make the "Jews" into scapegoats. I am simply pointing out that Israel is heavily involved in a number of conflicts across the world, including Darfur.

This wasn't a stunt by Gadhafi. What he said is true. The Israelis are supporting one side in the conflict, with logistics and most likely cash and arms.

I suspect that they are doing so to advance an anti-Chinese agenda.
 

Thac0man

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China and the US are currently contesting control of the globe.
China is filling the void left in Africa following the exit of the European colonists and evaporation of Soviet might, which left various tin pot dictators and failed states high and dry. China is using Venezeula, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Korea to tie down the Americans. America resonds by stirring up trouble in Tibet and Burma.
I dont think thats true. Both Tibet and Burma are issues that people in the West want to see action on. No one is forcing China to support Burma or indeed occupy Tibet.

N. Korea, Pakistan and Afghanistan are shared political interests between China and the US.

China as little influance in Venezuela and virtually no interest in Iraq, Iran or Palistine.

The fact that China develops its economic relations with other nations does not put it in opposition to the US, in terms of influance.

The US and China view each other as partners in a great many areas.
 

swansandtyphus

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The West must act in unison with the UN. In that, all nations share a responsibility, unless you are advocating unilateral military action by Western nations. Are you?
The Chinese veto and the opposition of a host of nations who themselves are guilty of oppression has meant that the UN did not condemn the butchery in Darfur.
There will be no UN action taken against Bashir.

The only way to protect the people of Darfur is to send in a multi-national force without the UN rubber stamp and f*ck the Chinese.

America and NATO intervened in Kosovo without UN authorisation because the Soviets and the Chinese would have blocked a UN intervention.

America and its allies went into Iraq when Russia and China who were benefiting from their business relationship with Saddam and working to get sanctions refused to implement 1441 which authorised military force against Iraq.

The anti-war left, made up of former pro-Soviet groups in the West who were dormant between 1989 when Communism collapsed and 9/11 which gave them a new confidence in the imminent decline of American power, were re-activated by Russian and Chinese intelligence to oppose any American led intervention into their client states at every turn.

One never sees protests by the anti-war left in relation to Chechnya or Tibet.

However there are noisy protests about the human rights of Al-Qaeda detainees, Israeli "war-crimes" and "genocide" in Iraq.
 
A

Asi-Irish

The anti-war left, made up of former pro-Soviet groups in the West who were dormant between 1989 when Communism collapsed and 9/11 which gave them a new confidence in the imminent decline of American power, were re-activated by Russian and Chinese intelligence to oppose any American led intervention into their client states at every turn.

One never sees protests by the anti-war left in relation to Chechnya or Tibet.

However there are noisy protests about the human rights of Al-Qaeda detainees, Israeli "war-crimes" and "genocide" in Iraq.
What a conspiracy theory!

Oh, and how about the God damned anti-Chinese protests all over the world in the run up to the Olympics?
 

Thac0man

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I am not trying to make the "Jews" into scapegoats. I am simply pointing out that Israel is heavily involved in a number of conflicts across the world, including Darfur.

This wasn't a stunt by Gadhafi. What he said is true. The Israelis are supporting one side in the conflict, with logistics and most likely cash and arms.

I suspect that they are doing so to advance an anti-Chinese agenda.
We accept refugees and indeed have political representitives of various factions nvolved in conflicts resident in Ireland. Does that make Ireland involved in conflicts around the world? No it does not.

Israel has no anti-Chinese agenda. That is a base and utterly erroneous assumption. In fact the US places restrictions on hi-tech arms exports to Isreal after attempts by Israel to sell the technology on to China.

Isreal has been happy to do business with China. The most high profile spat involving Israel and China was back in 2001 when as mentioned above the US forbid Israel from completing a $1bn sale of air bourne radar equipment to China. However it is acknowledged that the Chinese AWACs project was brought to completion with Israeli help and the co-operationof Pakistan.

I would also take issue with the claim that Israel is the biggest arms supplier to India. In terms of cash yes, but no material. How many Merhava tanks do the indian army own or other Israeli manufactured small arms? Citing the dollor value of arms does not adaquatly plaster over the fact most of the foreign manufactured arms India has are supplied by other nations, not Israel.
 

swansandtyphus

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N. Korea, Pakistan and Afghanistan are shared political interests between China and the US.
N Korea, Pakistan and Afghanistan are all in China's backyard. China seeks to dominate Asia and exclude the US.

The fact that China develops its economic relations with other nations does not put it in opposition to the US, in terms of influance.
Economic relations go hand in hand with political, diplomatic and military influence.

Both Tibet and Burma are issues that people in the West want to see action on. No one is forcing China to support Burma or indeed occupy Tibet.
The plight of Tibet and Burma were issues for a tiny minority until China began to flex its new economic muscles and began its massive re-armament and modernisation of its military (new hi-tech fighters, new weaponry for its land army and expansion of its nuclear submarine fleet and the purchase of aircraft carriers for its surface fleet.)
Influence in Burma, gives China access to the Bay on Bengal and the Indian Ocean.
Tibet is a bulwark against Indian ambitions in central Asia.

The US and China view each other as partners in a great many areas.
So did Britain and Germany before World War I and Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia before 1941. Things change.
 

Thac0man

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America and NATO intervened in Kosovo without UN authorisation because the Soviets and the Chinese would have blocked a UN intervention.

America and its allies went into Iraq when Russia and China who were benefiting from their business relationship with Saddam and working to get sanctions refused to implement 1441 which authorised military force against Iraq.
I stand corected. But again that does highlight how wrong it is to accuse the West of not intervening. Russia and China were the ones blocking UN action on ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. It is the West pressuring for action on Darfur, but with nearly every Arab or Muslim nation supporting ethnic cleansing in the region - what are the chances of success?

It is simply not the case that the West is damned if they do and damned if they can't. In an increasingly inter-connected world other nations who actively stop intervention by the UN or are themselves carrying out Genocide etc have to be taken into account. This arguement that the jews are somehow responsible for all these wars is delusional nonsense.
 
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