It is five years since Beslan.

Christine Murray

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I was put in mind of the anniversary by this link in the London Independent:

Russians mark 5 years since Beslan school tragedy - Europe, World - The Independent

Mostly we mark anniversaries to prevent recurrence and for many these days will be difficult, the fact that
the short link alludes briefly to the ongoing violence in the Northern Caucausus has been published on this site by
other members thus I decided to link to Anna Politkovskya, her murder, her role in the sieges as a negotiator
and the ongoing murder trial which has been called a farce by members of her family and close friends.

Beslan school hostage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anna Politkovskaya | TIME Europe Magazine | 60 Years of Heroes

BBC NEWS
 
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Clanrickard

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Utter barbarism. Shows you how twisted people have become because of the ongoing violence.
 

Christine Murray

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FutureTaoiseach

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The truth of this event has not come out in my opinion. The terrorists committed a barbaric attrocity, but there is evidence that some of the deaths - perhaps even most - were caused by the incompetence of the Russian special forces on the day, including allegations that a tank fired at the school. Don't forget how the Moscow theatre siege was ended by pumping poison gas into the cinema which ended up killing over 200 people. One thing I will say is that what happened to the Russian civilians - especially children - was a monstrous and evil crime that must be condemned. At the same time, there is a tendency to forget how this started, and the possibly hundreds of thousands of Chechens killed since 1994 as a result of Moscow's obsession with denying self-determination to peoples in the North Caucasus like the Chechens and the Ingush who have only been under the Russian yoke since the 1850's. If a similar standard were applied to the Irish i.e. that you should remain part of a state based on being part of it for a certain length of time, then Ireland would still be under British rule. As with NI, political negotiations are needed. Noone outside of the Russophile community truly believes that Chechnya's referendum on remaining part of Russia was free or nor, nor that the elections there were. At the same time, the EU needs good relations with Russia while we are dependent on them for our energy needs. But we should aim to reduce that dependence, so that principle won't have to be sacrificed on the altar of realpolitic indefinitely.
 

Christine Murray

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irish_bob

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The truth of this event has not come out in my opinion. The terrorists committed a barbaric attrocity, but there is evidence that some of the deaths - perhaps even most - were caused by the incompetence of the Russian special forces on the day, including allegations that a tank fired at the school. Don't forget how the Moscow theatre siege was ended by pumping poison gas into the cinema which ended up killing over 200 people. One thing I will say is that what happened to the Russian civilians - especially children - was a monstrous and evil crime that must be condemned. At the same time, there is a tendency to forget how this started, and the possibly hundreds of thousands of Chechens killed since 1994 as a result of Moscow's obsession with denying self-determination to peoples in the North Caucasus like the Chechens and the Ingush who have only been under the Russian yoke since the 1850's. If a similar standard were applied to the Irish i.e. that you should remain part of a state based on being part of it for a certain length of time, then Ireland would still be under British rule. As with NI, political negotiations are needed. Noone outside of the Russophile community truly believes that Chechnya's referendum on remaining part of Russia was free or nor, nor that the elections there were. At the same time, the EU needs good relations with Russia while we are dependent on them for our energy needs. But we should aim to reduce that dependence, so that principle won't have to be sacrificed on the altar of realpolitic indefinitely.

+1

the russians have inflicted more than thier fair share of savagery on the chechens
 

MichaelR

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At the same time, the EU needs good relations with Russia while we are dependent on them for our energy needs. But we should aim to reduce that dependence, so that principle won't have to be sacrificed on the altar of realpolitic indefinitely.
So if Ireland followed principle you think it should recognize an independent Islamist Chechnya?
 

FutureTaoiseach

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So if Ireland followed principle you think it should recognize an independent Islamist Chechnya?
I believe in self-determination. I would support a referendum on independence that was supervised by the UN observers to verify it was free and fair. And if, when independent, the Chechens want an Islamist system, then so be it. I am no fan of Islamism, but I firmly believe that it was Russian interference in the region from 1994 onwards that led to the rise of Islamism in Chechnya.
 

netron

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I believe in self-determination. I would support a referendum on independence that was supervised by the UN observers to verify it was free and fair. And if, when independent, the Chechens want an Islamist system, then so be it. I am no fan of Islamism, but I firmly believe that it was Russian interference in the region from 1994 onwards that led to the rise of Islamism in Chechnya.
i grant you that - Russia has a terrible history when it comes to Chechnya.

the entire population was deported by Stalin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)

but - that still does not justify the horror of Beslan.

if we were to take your logic to its envitable conclusion, the Jews of Israel would be fully justified to open up their own gas chambers for Palestinians, just because cos it was done to them.

i'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

Chechen resistance/guerilla war i can understand - something like Beslan is beyond the pale i'm afraid.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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i grant you that - Russia has a terrible history when it comes to Chechnya.

the entire population was deported by Stalin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)

but - that still does not justify the horror of Beslan.

if we were to take your logic to its envitable conclusion, the Jews of Israel would be fully justified to open up their own gas chambers for Palestinians, just because cos it was done to them.

i'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

Chechen resistance/guerilla war i can understand - something like Beslan is beyond the pale i'm afraid.
Now you're just being stupid. I condemned what happened at Beslan. I'm just explaining the context in which it happened. And that context is one in which innumerable Beslans have been visited on the Chechens since 1994. It's just the TV cameras were not let in to see them. It underlines Stalin's point about 1 death being a tragedy, but a million just statistics. Out of sight is out of mind.
 

disgruntledcitizen

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The Beslan atrocity was unique in terms of depravity and sadism.
indeed, i still cannot but get really angry and upset when i think about it or see it on the news, as someone whom had just recently become a parent it was horrific beyond words to see on the news, read in the papers....

it was one of the few times in my life where i could have probably killed the ********************ers if given the opportunity.

It has also coloured my attitude to Islamic fundamentalism more than anything before or since
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Yes and tens of thousands of Chechens who lost their children to Russian attrocities were also parents. Noone has clean hands in this.
 

netron

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Now you're just being stupid. I condemned what happened at Beslan. I'm just explaining the context in which it happened. And that context is one in which innumerable Beslans have been visited on the Chechens since 1994. It's just the TV cameras were not let in to see them. It underlines Stalin's point about 1 death being a tragedy, but a million just statistics. Out of sight is out of mind.
please name me a single instance where the Russian army took over a school, and killed and raped the children on a suicide mission.


its the particulars of Beslan itself that are horrific.

normal warfare, we can deal with.

you are equivalating psychotic sadism with warfare - they are NOT equivalent.
 


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