It is five years since Beslan.

disgruntledcitizen

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same here.

and like you, i'm also a parent - and maybe that why Beslan is ingrained in my brain.
i don't think anyone whom was not a parent can comprehend the horror that was Beslan, its up there with Dunblane in terms of sheer deliberate mind numbing evil that there is only one way to deal with.
 


netron

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Yes and tens of thousands of Chechens who lost their children to Russian attrocities were also parents. Noone has clean hands in this.
incorrect. you are using Islamic Fundementalist arguments.

an artillery officer lobbing shells under orders is in no way the same morally as a suicide psychopath murdering children at point blank.

next thing you'll be saying is that the Nazi holocaust was ok, because the allies firebombed Dresden.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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please name me a single instance where the Russian army took over a school, and killed and raped the children on a suicide mission.


its the particulars of Beslan itself that are horrific.

normal warfare, we can deal with.

you are equivalating psychotic sadism with warfare - they are NOT equivalent.
You're very naive to believe that if it did happen, the Russians would tell us about it or let the Western media find out about it. Chechnya is one of the hardest parts of the world for the non-Russian media to access, which suggests reports of attrocities are true. And from the sight of Grozny during the war I'd say there are plenty of schools destroyed since 1994. Furthermore, I stand over what I said about the cause of the explosions in Beslan being unclear. Some witnesses claimed Russian forces fired on the school.



We have the word of groups like Human Rights Watch over the years as to the existence of mass-graves and attrocities in Chechnya. Out of sight is out of mind, as you prove in your simplistic analysis.
 

netron

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i don't think anyone whom was not a parent can comprehend the horror that was Beslan, its up there with Dunblane in terms of sheer deliberate mind numbing evil that there is only one way to deal with.
agreed. its like a nightmare come to life.

i'm amazed that the Russians didnt just nuke Chechnya after it. says a lot about the Russians. they could have done it - but didnt.
 

disgruntledcitizen

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Yes and tens of thousands of Chechens who lost their children to Russian attrocities were also parents. Noone has clean hands in this.

whataboutery aside

I fully appreciate that the Russians can be brutal and heavy handed and they have probably killed more children in dealing with the terrorists / rebels in shelling, air stikes, etc.

I sincerely doubt that any Russian Military line commanders or HQ staff would have ever taken such action or anything like it... the terrorists on the other hand set out to do just that and nothing and i mean nothing can be said to excuse or lessen there actions, and to attempt to do so speaks volumes of those who do
 

FutureTaoiseach

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whataboutery aside

I fully appreciate that the Russians can be brutal and heavy handed and they have probably killed more children in dealing with the terrorists / rebels in shelling, air stikes, etc.

I sincerely doubt that any Russian Military line commanders or HQ staff would have ever taken such action or anything like it... the terrorists on the other hand set out to do just that and nothing and i mean nothing can be said to excuse or lessen there actions, and to attempt to do so speaks volumes of those who do
Well if you doubt it, you obviously haven't heard of Josef Stalin. Who do you think killed those 20 million people? It wasn't just one man. It could not have happened without support from the largely Russian armed forces. :roll:
 

netron

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You're very naive to believe that if it did happen, the Russians would tell us about it or let the Western media find out about it. Chechnya is one of the hardest parts of the world for the non-Russian media to access, which suggests reports of attrocities are true. And from the sight of Grozny during the war I'd say there are plenty of schools destroyed since 1994. Furthermore, I stand over what I said about the cause of the explosions in Beslan being unclear. Some witnesses claimed Russian forces fired on the school.


We have the word of groups like Human Rights Watch over the years as to the existence of mass-graves and attrocities in Chechnya. Out of sight is out of mind, as you prove in your simplistic analysis.

fully understand that - Chechnya was a dirty war. i know that.

but be careful with who you quote to back yourself up.

Here's a little nugget on "Human Rights Watch"
Human Rights Watch Goes to Saudi Arabia - WSJ.com

A delegation from Human Rights Watch was recently in Saudi Arabia. To investigate the mistreatment of women under Saudi Law? To campaign for the rights of homosexuals, subject to the death penalty in Saudi Arabia? To protest the lack of religious freedom in the Saudi Kingdom? To issue a report on Saudi political prisoners?

No, no, no, and no. The delegation arrived to raise money from wealthy Saudis by highlighting HRW's demonization of Israel. An HRW spokesperson, Sarah Leah Whitson, highlighted HRW's battles with "pro-Israel pressure groups in the US, the European Union and the United Nations." (Was Ms. Whitson required to wear a burkha, or are exceptions made for visiting anti-Israel "human rights" activists"? Driving a car, no doubt, was out of the question.)

Apparently, Ms. Whitson found no time to criticize Saudi Arabia's abysmal human rights record. But never fear, HRW "recently called on the Kingdom to do more to protect the human rights of domestic workers.
 

netron

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Well if you doubt it, you obviously haven't heard of Josef Stalin. Who do you think killed those 20 million people? It wasn't just one man. It could not have happened without support from the largely Russian armed forces. :roll:
careful FT. you're going down the same path as the Islamic fundementalists, where any conceivable atrocity is justified , just because someone else did something in history.

yer normally a good poster and i enjoy your contributions. just be careful with the moral equivalence stuff.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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careful FT. you're going down the same path as the Islamic fundementalists, where any conceivable atrocity is justified , just because someone else did something in history.

yer normally a good poster and i enjoy your contributions. just be careful with the moral equivalence stuff.
As far as I am concerned, murder is murder, whether it's done in a tank, an F16 or wearing a suicide-vest, if it targets civilians. Yes - there is moral equivalence in such situations imho.
 

disgruntledcitizen

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Well if you doubt it, you obviously haven't heard of Josef Stalin. Who do you think killed those 20 million people? It wasn't just one man. It could not have happened without support from the largely Russian armed forces. :roll:
yes Stalin was a brutal dictator, possibly the worst in all recorded history, Hitler, Pol Pot, idi Amin, etc are all in the 1/2 penny place by comparison. It was not the Russian army that committed the atrocities it was any entire culture of fear, intimidation, paranoia, betrayal lead by the NKVD (later KGB), the political commissars, etc that commited much of what are now regarded as atrocities, not the red army / russian army which is not to say they were a timid bunch though.

However that may have only been 50 - 90 years ago but has to be placed in the context of the times and of what was then the Soviet union, it does not compare to todays modern world and standards. What happened then would never have been tolerated today just as the murder in Beslan was not and must never be tolerated or excused.
 

netron

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As far as I am concerned, murder is murder, whether it's done in a tank, an F16 or wearing a suicide-vest, if it targets civilians. Yes - there is moral equivalence in such situations imho.
fair enough. i respect your position - but i'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 

netron

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yes Stalin was a brutal dictator, possibly the worst in all recorded history, Hitler, Pol Pot, idi Amin, etc are all in the 1/2 penny place by comparison. It was not the Russian army that committed the atrocities it was any entire culture of fear, intimidation, paranoia, betrayal lead by the NKVD (later KGB), the political commissars, etc that commited much of what are now regarded as atrocities, not the red army / russian army which is not to say they were a timid bunch though.
if you didnt follow NKVD orders you were shot dead. simple as that.

by comparision, the Wehrmacht had channels of disapproval, where normal German soldiers could disagree with being involved in Einsatzgruppen activities on the Eastern Front and be excused from such duties.

Mad i know - but the Germans were actually more humane to their own soldiers with regards to their genocide.

With the Russians - it was a bullet or else. simple as that.
 

cactusflower

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I believe in self-determination. I would support a referendum on independence that was supervised by the UN observers to verify it was free and fair. And if, when independent, the Chechens want an Islamist system, then so be it. I am no fan of Islamism, but I firmly believe that it was Russian interference in the region from 1994 onwards that led to the rise of Islamism in Chechnya.
I believe in self determination of nations too. I think that there was US interference to fuel Chechen unrest: it is known to have been Brzezinski's strategy in the region. The Russians failure to allow self determination created conditions in which religious and ethnic divides could be exploited. The same thing went on in "former Yugoslavia".

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/brz.htm
 

Thac0man

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I believe in self determination of nations too. I think that there was US interference to fuel Chechen unrest: it is known to have been Brzezinski's strategy in the region. The Russians failure to allow self determination created conditions in which religious and ethnic divides could be exploited. The same thing went on in "former Yugoslavia".

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/brz.htm
The links between Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan are very spurious indeed. Any other source for the interview with Brzezinski? A site that makes frankly sensational claims then asks for money to hear the rest has to be suspect.

I mean the US, during its worst years of post-Soviot relations with Russia was never revealed by the Kremlin to be responsible for the Chechen war of independance? No opponent of America, allied to any aggrieved party in the Balkans has implicated the US, or indeed anyone in the West with starting that conflict. Any convenient reason for that? And in the link, the language and terms popularly used after the Soviet war in Afghanistan is used to describe its start? The Vietnam comparions was not common place until after the conflict. Indeed the war itself was not a huge issue internationally back then.

One easy solution and cause to three complex wars. Too good to be true? Yes.
 
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Christine Murray

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This morning's Irish Times has a report on the fifth anniversary of Beslan;
Violence overshadows Beslan siege anniversary - The Irish Times - Wed, Sep 02, 2009

Those who worked in Novaya Gazeta and went to Chechnya to report do not seem
to think that Kadyrov is anything other than a violent muppet supported by the Kremlin.
Of course mostly they have been murdered and have left books or scraps of writing
on that peculiar relationship:
Russia: 'Novaya Gazeta' journalist and lawyer shot dead - English Pen

I wd highly recommend Putin's Russia by the late Anna Politkovskaya:
http://www.readysteadybook.com/BookReview.aspx?isbn=1843430509
Who Killed Anna Politkovskaya? - The New York Review of Books
 
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irish_bob

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doesnt justify Beslan though. you're getting trapped in "moral relativism"
beslan was a crime of barbaric savagery and i do not in anyway mean to try and excuse it , i was making the point that russia is guilty of notorious brutality in chechnya itself , putin so as to enfore his tough guy immage went back into chechnya in 2000 , the man cannot tollerate any kind of real independance for any state or state within a state in the russian spehere and i include poland and of course ukraine
 

Breadan O'Connor

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I mean the US, during its worst years of post-Soviot relations with Russia was never revealed by the Kremlin to be responsible for the Chechen war of independance?

There has been a recent upsurge in terror attacks in Ingushetia next door to Chechnya.

The ingush president, who was injured in a bomb attack, has publicly blamed the US,UK and Israel for fomenting the terrorist violence

20 dead in suicide bomb attack as carnage returns to the Caucasus - Times Online

It's noticeable that the above named countries backed Georgia last year when it squared up to Russia
 

Andrew49

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The European Court of Human Rights is due to rule on whether the Russian government should have done more to prevent a school siege in the city of Beslan in which more than 330 people died in 2004. LINK
 

Andrew49

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The ECHR finds Russia at fault for violating the Right to Life in the Beslan school siege massacre on four separate points. The ECHR ordered Russia to pay of 2.95 million euros in the case of mothers of Beslan

LINK
 


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