It Is Not a Bailout

Samell

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Even if it is a bailout it will be the cheapest bailout in the world to date. It will be no less than a call to patriotic arms. It will be a turning of the corner. It will draw a line under the banking issues. It will reassure the markets. Blah blah blah
We are going into this with our eyes open and knowing all the facts, it is just a minor mater of short term liquidity. That was before the bank bailout, sorry guarantee. How much are we going to be hit with for the extended warranty of these faulty institutions?

First condition of bailout 'Get rid of FF'
 


nuj

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Stop saying bail-out. It's pejorative. The taoiseach says it is, so it must be.
 

Magellan

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Oxford dictionary say a bailout is

"an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse…"

seems on the button to
Ah but you see....'Ireland is different'
 

sport02

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There is an interesting interview on the business section of the SKY NEWS website, shows SKY'S Jeff Randel interviewing Dick Roche, this evenning.

Jeff tells Mr. Roche "if it looks like a bailout, smells like a bailout, and costs the same as a bailout, it is a bailout"

The presenter also told Mr Roche he was living in LA LA land, if he thought there would be no conditions set down with the bailout.
 

deiseguy

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If only it was a bailout. It's simply a restructuring of debt at a slightly lower interest rate over a longer time. We will still have to repay every penny. There will be no debt reduction no debt forgiveness.

If the ECB is so concerned about the funding position of our banks well then they should start behaving like the CB in their initials suggests they should and take control of the situation. Take charge of the banks find a buyer for what can be saved and wind-up what can't. Instead they are behaving in a manner very reminiscent of FF wanting all of the power but none of the responsibility.
 

Iarmuid

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If the ECB is so concerned about the funding position of our banks well then they should start behaving like the CB in their initials suggests they should and take control of the situation. Take charge of the banks find a buyer for what can be saved and wind-up what can't. Instead they are behaving in a manner very reminiscent of FF wanting all of the power but none of the responsibility.
+1

to the best of my ability I believe this is the crux - the loan to deposit ratios of the main banking players are still above 100%, difficult to get hold of right now, to be sure. Which means in every day parlance, the cost to rebuild the balance sheets is an unknown and likely to be greater then the 50 bn touted to date, the ECB is currently financing the rebuilding via loans backed by dubious(?) assets. They want rid and hence the calls on the sovereign to take the bailout, the key here is when Oli says there is no facility to lend to the banks directly through either the auspices of the EU or the IMF but there is nothing preventing the irish government passing on the funds to the banking system, the CAVEAT of course, any future losses on the banks part with new bailout funds are now the loss of the TAX PAYER and not the ECB and BINDINGLY SO, which will come with the legal provisions attached to the bailouts. Great for everyone except for the plebs paying PAYE etc...


P.S anyone with info on current loan to deposit ratios of the major banks would be most welcome.
 
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shyster

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I no longer accept any excuse of incompetence. What they have done to Ireland goes far beyond that.

And to a large extent, the main opposition stood idly by.
Do you really believe that, consultant? I prefer to believe it's just incompetence. Because it's easier to believe that, after all these matters are very technical. But I can't understand actively seeking to betray the country this way. Doesn't make sense.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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Talk and debate about 'bailouts' - whether it is one or isn't - totally detract from the reality of where we really are, what really has happened to us.

We, the Irish people are victims of betrayal and sell-out. It is as simple as that.

What is not so simple is the identification of those who are guilty of our betrayal.

On one level, we have the two parties who each shoulder 100% guilt for their roles in this sordid situation. Fianna Fail who have added further disgrace to their reputation and the quisling greens who through greed and hunger for the trappings of power readily prostituted themselves to their whore-masters.

Quislings and prostitutes? Look at independents such as Lowery, Healy-Rae etc. But don't expect any signs of shame.

But the opposition also have their own guilt to shoulder. Principal amongst these and to the greatest degree has to be Fine Gael who since 2007 largely went comatose and put organisation of THEIR party structure ahead of their responsibilities as the main opposition which they abdicated. How guilty? Would 80% be accurate?

Labour also must look at their inactivity and wait-for-the-election tactics. To a lesser degree than FG, admittedly - they managed the Doherty scalp and Burton and Gilmore regularly got under the skins of Lenihan and Cowen. 50%?

The only consistency of attempted opposition came from Sinn Fein.

Not for the first time have we been badly served by those we have elected but rarely if ever with such treachery.
On the contrary, FG tried to oust the government many times with votes of no-confidence, put forward an alternative banking strategy, tried to stop NAMA, were the main movers behind ousting O'Dea.

Maybe you are angry, but blaming a party that has been in power for just 2.5 of the last 23 years is just silly. The tragedy is that a careful conservative party like FG was not in power from 2002 on. There would have been no "if I have it, I'll spend it" had FG been in power.

SF would have jumped into coalition with FF in 2007 if they were asked.
 

bree

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I think there should be a thread to discuss how a peaceful protest could be organised to demand the resignation of the government but I don't have enough posts to start it. No other discussion is worth having at this stage.
 

consultant

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On the contrary, FG tried to oust the government many times with votes of no-confidence, put forward an alternative banking strategy, tried to stop NAMA, were the main movers behind ousting O'Dea.

Maybe you are angry, but blaming a party that has been in power for just 2.5 of the last 23 years is just silly. The tragedy is that a careful conservative party like FG was not in power from 2002 on. There would have been no "if I have it, I'll spend it" had FG been in power.

SF would have jumped into coalition with FF in 2007 if they were asked.

You are missing the point.

I contend that while FF the greens and the independents who sold out to the
are guilty of the treachery that has us where we are, the opposition have been guilty of complacency.

FG in particular went AWOL to concentrate on their own party organization. Not what they were paid for.
 

anarko

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I think there should be a thread to discuss how a peaceful protest could be organised to demand the resignation of the government but I don't have enough posts to start it. No other discussion is worth having at this stage.
same as.......

they have to go
 

Odyessus

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The Real Traitors

Ireland is under pressure at the moment to accept a bailout. The price our European partners want to exact is the abolition of our low corporation tax rate, even though far from being our problem, it is one of the pluses for our economy.

If refuse to accept a bailout, it may cause irreparable damage to the euro and ultimately the entire eurozone. It is therefore in the interest of the entire eurozone that we accept the bailout, as well as ours.

If Ireland asks for a bailout, it will be granted, but our corporation tax rate will be the price that is demanded. If we do not ask for a bailout and insist that we do not need it and will not accept it, our euro partners are in no position to demand any changes in our corporation tax for it.

If we stick to our guns, they will be happy to lend us the money without any preconditions, other than the budgetary parameters we have already agreed to.

This is the high stakes game that is going on. Is it absurd to expect the government to naively and candidly say this in public, or reveal what their bottom line is.

Hysterical people who accuse the government of lies and treachery are undermining the government's and ultimately the country's position.

Have no doubt, there are many people in the European Commission and in other European governments who welcome the criticism the government is getting in Ireland. They rightly judge that this intensifies the pressure the Irish government is under to accept a deal on their terms.

If people would put their party allegiances aside and realise Lenihan is trying to get the best deal possible for the country, we might have a public opinion which is supportive of the government, at least in these negotiations, giving Lenihan another card, instead of undermining him.


The people on this board who want Lenihan to fail, just to spite FF, regardless of the damage it does to the country, are far more deserving of being called traitors than those they hysterically abuse.
 

sport02

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Ireland is under pressure at the moment to accept a bailout. The price our European partners want to exact is the abolition of our low corporation tax rate, even though far from being our problem, it is one of the pluses for our economy.

If refuse to accept a bailout, it may cause irreparable damage to the euro and ultimately the entire eurozone. It is therefore in the interest of the entire eurozone that we accept the bailout, as well as ours.

If Ireland asks for a bailout, it will be granted, but our corporation tax rate will be the price that is demanded. If we do not ask for a bailout and insist that we do not need it and will not accept it, our euro partners are in no position to demand any changes in our corporation tax for it.

If we stick to our guns, they will be happy to lend us the money without any preconditions, other than the budgetary parameters we have already agreed to.

This is the high stakes game that is going on. Is it absurd to expect the government to naively and candidly say this in public, or reveal what their bottom line is.

Hysterical people who accuse the government of lies and treachery are undermining the government's and ultimately the country's position.

Have no doubt, there are many people in the European Commission and in other European governments who welcome the criticism the government is getting in Ireland. They rightly judge that this intensifies the pressure the Irish government is under to accept a deal on their terms.

If people would put their party allegiances aside and realise Lenihan is trying to get the best deal possible for the country, we might have a public opinion which is supportive of the government, at least in these negotiations, giving Lenihan another card, instead of undermining him.


The people on this board who want Lenihan to fail, just to spite FF, regardless of the damage it does to the country, are far more deserving of being called traitors than those they hysterically abuse.


Your post does hold some merit, if anyone thinks there is not high stakes discussions taking place they are foolish.
According to Sky News Jeff Randel and the former UK chancellor of the Exchequer Norman Lamont both said our corporation tax is at risk, the chancellor sounding even more serious.

But nevertheless FF have got us into this quandry, but maybe for the next week, everyone should take of their political cap, and let Lenihan get on with the job, but many like Paul Somervile will argue we don't have a strong enough team in place to tackle the enormity of the problem.

Finally after such agreement is reached, FF and the Green's should publically, announce their intentions of holding a general election after the budget.
 

Odyessus

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Your post does hold some merit, if anyone thinks there is not high stakes discussions taking place they are foolish.
According to Sky News Jeff Randel and the former UK chancellor of the Exchequer Norman Lamont both said our corporation tax is at risk, the chancellor sounding even more serious.

But nevertheless FF have got us into this quandry, but maybe for the next week, everyone should take of their political cap, and let Lenihan get on with the job, but many like Paul Somervile will argue we don't have a strong enough team in place to tackle the enormity of the problem.

Finally after such agreement is reached, FF and the Green's should publically, announce their intentions of holding a general election after the budget.

I have just seen Newsnight now, having recorded it while watching the Ireland Norway game.

What Lamont said confirms my view, but I was struck by the fact that some people in the UK (not Lamont) seem to seriously balk at chipping in €7 billion to Ireland's bailout.

Ireland chipped in over €1 billion (proportionately twice as much) to the Greek bailout without a murmur here, and I am sure the Greeks are not at all abashed at accepting it. I am sure we would the same for the UK were the situation reversed, both out of neighbourliness, and self-interest for our trade.


On your second point: Yes, many people hold FF responsible for the mess we are in, and they certainly at the very least deserve a great deal of the blame. But for the moment at any rate, they are in government and they are representing Ireland at these discussions.

We should get behind the government while they are negotiating on Ireland's behalf, and deal with them frankly domestically.

Lenihan is saying to the Germans "You also have some responsibility for allowing your banks to flood the Irish system with money they couldn't lend at home."

We don't want to give Merkel the ammunition to reply: "Even your own people are saying it's all your fault, not ours."
 

ocoonassa

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Keep on having to bail out the obscenely rich...

Act like it's perfectly normal.
 

maxthedog

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We should get behind the government while they are negotiating on Ireland's behalf, and deal with them frankly domestically.

"
I do not believe or trust FF too represent me or my family at the IMF negotiations. Any goverment to force the Croke Park Agreement on the private sector of this country, has only one goal.

Too protect themselves and their pensions, so they can leave the Irish people in slavery.

FF have never taken any responsibility for the desperate situation we are in, other than reward Neary , Hurley and Molloy, NAMA is continuing too protect the Galway Tent and you want me too support this evil empire.
 

consultant

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I have just seen Newsnight now, having recorded it while watching the Ireland Norway game.

What Lamont said confirms my view, but I was struck by the fact that some people in the UK (not Lamont) seem to seriously balk at chipping in €7 billion to Ireland's bailout.

Ireland chipped in over €1 billion (proportionately twice as much) to the Greek bailout without a murmur here, and I am sure the Greeks are not at all abashed at accepting it. I am sure we would the same for the UK were the situation reversed, both out of neighbourliness, and self-interest for our trade.


You seem to be confusing politics with soccer and FF with Trap's lads.

This gang is totally responsible for the treachery of their actions that created this mess and the risk to our low corporation tax rates.

Waving flags and singing "Ole" is not going to change that.
On your second point: Yes, many people hold FF responsible for the mess we are in, and they certainly at the very least deserve a great deal of the blame. But for the moment at any rate, they are in government and they are representing Ireland at these discussions.

We should get behind the government while they are negotiating on Ireland's behalf, and deal with them frankly domestically.

Lenihan is saying to the Germans "You also have some responsibility for allowing your banks to flood the Irish system with money they couldn't lend at home."

We don't want to give Merkel the ammunition to reply: "Even your own people are saying it's all your fault, not ours."
 


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