Its a Tomato Not a Tom8to - Bye Bye Sovereignty

Bill D Gallows

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Well first we had the rumours FF were talking to Europe about a bailout, which were completely denied by Biffo and Lenihan.

Now the EU are admitting 'discussions' are taking place with our FF led Government to make Ireland accept the bailout, in order to stop the rot which is dragging other countries into the bond mess.

FF are now going to tell us that it is a bailout for the bank debt, not sovereign debt.

Hello, have you forgotten that when FF gave the blanket bank guarantee, the bank debt became sovereign debt.

The keys to our country are about to be handed over by FF to the European Union/ IMF.
 


johnnypockets

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I 100% agree. But does anyone really care. Most of the people I have met today don't even know what's going on! I have mentioned it a couple of times and I either get a blank stare or the oh so common: 'ah sure what else can they do'. God help this country and the idiots that dwell within.
 

Asparagus

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Well first we had the rumours FF were talking to Europe about a bailout, which were completely denied by Biffo and Lenihan.

Now the EU are admitting 'discussions' are taking place with our FF led Government to make Ireland accept the bailout, in order to stop the rot which is dragging other countries into the bond mess.

FF are now going to tell us that it is a bailout for the bank debt, not sovereign debt.

Hello, have you forgotten that when FF gave the blanket bank guarantee, the bank debt became sovereign debt.

The keys to our country are about to be handed over by FF to the European Union/ IMF.
Thats bank debt Ted, it's a completely different shark.

Though maybe a "bank" bailout does immunise the government from having to provide full disclosure.
 

Bill D Gallows

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RTE NEWS: Monday 15th November 2010

The European Commission has acknowledged that Ireland had come under pressure to accept a bailout.

However, a spokesman for Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn said the pressure was not coming from the European Commission but another player.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the Irish banking system's funding problems have deteriorated in recent weeks, which has caused significant concerns in Europe.

Between 27 August and 29 October, Ireland's banks received an additional €20bn in emergency liquidity funding from the Irish Central Bank.

At the same time, Irish financial institutions have also seen support from the European Central Bank jump to about €90bn.

Earlier it emerged that high-level officials held meetings over the weekend regarding the possibility of a rescue fund for Ireland.

It is understood the discussions involved officials from Ireland, Germany, the International Monetary Fund, the European Commission and the European Central Bank.

Last night, the Department of Finance said it had not applied for external assistance.

Commissioner Máire Geoghegan Quinn also said no application has been received from the Irish Government for a bailout.

Political sources said the Government was resisting overtures to take outside financial assistance.

The Government insists it has funds to run the country until the middle of next year.

It is believed agreement to a bailout would calm the markets after Ireland's cost of borrowing reached more than 9% last week.

The cost of borrowing for Ireland has declined today to 8.1%.

The drop follows a frenzy of media speculation over the weekend that Ireland was being urged to accept financial assistance.
 

ManOfReason

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Thats bank debt Ted, it's a completely different shark.

Though maybe a "bank" bailout does immunise the government from having to provide full disclosure.
All a 'bank' bailout does is officially turn 'bank debt' (de-facto sovereign debt) into offical sovereign debt.
 

Libero

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The FT Alphaville blog has a common-sense take on the government's line of spin:
"Frankly it’s a fiction of accounting whether the Irish banking sector or the Irish sovereign actually gets the bailout. Firstly given the nexus of funding guarantees that have bound the two together since the crisis, and which remain open to possible burden-sharing by bank bondholders."

FT Alphaville » Bailing out Ireland, bailing out banks

The ECB Vice-President has also punctured the notion that the EFSF can lend directly to banks, as opposed to going through governments: “For that purpose of course the European Financial Stability Facility would be adequate. According to the regulations of that facility, it cannot lend directly to banks. The facility lends to governments, but then the government of course may use the money for that purpose.”
Constancio Says Ireland Could Use Fund for Banks (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
 

Hewson

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Some people seem unable to grasp the reality that money from external sources, whether it's used to sort out the banks' funding problems or our national finances, is a bailout. You can call it what you will, twist the meaning and engage in semantics till you drop. As far as the rest of the world, and the bond markets in particular, is concerned it's Ireland Being Bailed Out.

Period.
 

olamp

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I 100% agree. But does anyone really care. Most of the people I have met today don't even know what's going on! I have mentioned it a couple of times and I either get a blank stare or the oh so common: 'ah sure what else can they do'. God help this country and the idiots that dwell within.
They`ll know all about it when salaries,services and thousands more jobs are cut!!! The ignorance of some people is beyond belief -they almost deserve what`s coming to them.
 

Magellan

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I for one welcome our new overlords and masters.
You know this bailout will probably come with a lot of stipulations.

Could we not beg the EU to make it a stipulation that we'll accept being bailed out as long as Fianna Fail are removed from power as part of the deal?

Give me EU Bureaucrats over Irish Gombeens anyday!
 

Bill D Gallows

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So after all the denials by Biffo/Lenihan, here we are. At the current rate of developments, our sovereignty will be gone by next weekend.

RTE News Afternoon 15th November 2010:
European Central Bank Vice President Vitor Constancio has said aid would be available for Ireland, whether it was for its banks or the State.

At a news conference in Vienna, Mr Constancio confirmed talks were under way on the issue, but that Ireland has not made any formal request for help.

The Portuguese Central Bank Governor said talks had been going on with other countries too, but that so far there have been no formal requests for aid.

He said that according to the European Financial Stability Facility's rules, loans cannot be made directly to banks.

Instead, the facility lends to governments, who earmark a certain amount of the funding for financial institutions.

Mr Constancio acknowledged that Ireland is financed until the middle of next year, but he said solutions 'have to be pondered' for the banks, which he said are at the centre of Ireland's problems.

Earlier, the Austrian Central Bank Governor and ECB policymaker, Ewald Nowotny, said he did not expect Ireland's problem to spread to Spain and Portugal, but that the EU wants a 'quick, good' solution to Ireland.

However, a source at the European Financial Stabilisation Facility told RTÉ News the special European Union bailout facility could not be used directly to support a country's banks.

But a segment of any bailout could go to help the banking sector as long as the amount was declared and politically agreed 'up front' as part of a larger package going to support a member state.

The source drew attention to the one-off €110bn Greek rescue package agreed last May. On that occasion €10bn was set aside for the Greek banking sector.

The amount was fully agreed and politically cleared as part of the country programme agreed between Greece, the EU and the International Monetary Fund.

Meanwhile, Portugal's finance minister has said his country is at a high risk of needing a bailout due to the danger of contagion from other debt-hit euro nations.

'The risk is high because we are not facing only a national or country problem,' the Financial Times website quoted Fernando Teixeira dos Santos as saying in reference to the possibility that Lisbon will need international financial assistance.

'It is the problems of Greece, Portugal and Ireland. This is not a problem of only this country,' he added.

Earlier, Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou warned that the tough stance taken by Germany on banks and bond markets sharing the pain of any eurozone debt default could force some economies towards bankruptcy.

He was speaking as new figures from the EU indicated that Greece's budget deficit is worse than had been thought.

EU and International Monetary Fund officials are in Athens to decide whether Greece should receive a third tranche of a rescue package.

Elsewhere, European Central Bank policy maker Axel Weber said that banks must be allowed to fold and backed the idea of issuing special bonds that would automatically convert to equity in the event of a crisis.

He was speaking at the opening of Euro Finance Week, which is expected to see bankers and policymakers clash over how far to go with new regulation.

Mr Weber stressed the need for stricter rules, saying a stable banking system was vital for long term growth.

The policy maker also underscored a number of areas for improvements and said bail-in instruments were one option for large banks that play a key role in global finance.

He also said banks need to be allowed to fold to avoid complacency and so-called 'moral hazard' developing among bankers.

The Bundesbank's President also dispelled the idea that banks would have to cut their lending to businesses in the real economy to meet new capital requirements.

Bank executives at the annual gathering are worried that yet more regulation on top of measures discussed at the G20 summit in Seoul last week will dent bank profits and, potentially, national economies.

Speakers during the week include European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet, IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn, French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde, European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and Deutsche Bank's CEO Josef Ackermann.

On top of regulation issues and the progress Europe's banks are making in repairing their battered businesses, fears about the future of heavily indebted eurozone members such as Ireland, Portugal and Greece are likely to dominate both public and private conversations at the conference.
 

ocoonassa

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I 100% agree. But does anyone really care. Most of the people I have met today don't even know what's going on! I have mentioned it a couple of times and I either get a blank stare or the oh so common: 'ah sure what else can they do'. God help this country and the idiots that dwell within.
Amen.

One of the lesser-known facts about retards is that they actually mark roughly the middle point of the American intelligence scale, which makes them the key focus group for entertainment, news, advertising and especially politics.
IQ Classification
180 People who can understand the physics articles on Wikipedia; Libertarians.
160 People who can do line integrals or set the time on a microwave.
140 Doctors and scientists
120 Democrats
100 Retards
80 Jocks Republicans
60 Administrators (public and private)
40 Nazis The KKK
20 Animal rights activists; Politicians
1 Spongebob Squarepants, Disney girls, Link

A synonym for retards in school is mainstream, as in, the "mainstream media". Retards are blessed with a great appreciation of television, which is pitched perfectly for their appreciation. For example, retards never cease to enjoy scenes where people sneak into a top secret military complex through spit-and-polished ventilation shafts six feet wide with handy built-in ladders. They find it very helpful when the weather man on the news reminds them to wear a coat when it's below zero Fahrenheit or not to stand out under a tree when there's lightning. Somewhat unfortunately, they really want to buy the car they see driving up the walls and across the ceiling, though at least they don't pay five times as much for a "status symbol" like the people in lower intelligence brackets.

The cause of mental retardation is natural selection for their relatively high intelligence, which allows them to avoid many problems. I mean, have you ever heard of a retard getting addicted to crack? Does a retard girl ever go 40 years without having babies to advance her career, only to decide that her biological clock is ticking and she has to spend $40,000 on in vitro fertility treatments? Do they ever get caught by the police after beating somebody to death in order to get their red shoelaces in a skinhead gang? Retards are a notch above jocks, because they absolutely love throwing around a ball, but when the coach wants them to run till they puke and spend all day bashing against some silly obstacle out on the field, they Just Say No. They're a little like Republicans: they'll work all day long and declare proudly at the end, "Mom, I got a job and they paid me a dollar!!!!" — but the difference is, they won't spend their spare time with political activity meant to make sure they get paid less than that tomorrow.

Maybe retards are still a little too clever for their own good sometimes. They'll accept public assistance for school and sometimes certain living expenses, but they always do so with a sense of shame. Compare that to administrators, a happier group who eagerly accept huge salaries sponged from tax money or the workers they supervise, but who can honestly believe that society really can't do without someone to tell schoolchildren that they have to wear a white, brown, or maroon top with three buttons and one unbuttoned over gray or black slacks. And when a retard gets frustrated and says why doesn't everyone at work just give up and go home, it's a little fit of sadness, but administrators really think that shuttering factories and hiring the Chinese to do it is a brilliant insight only they could offer. (from uncyclopedia article on Retards.)
 

An Chuileog

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Well first we had the rumours FF were talking to Europe about a bailout, which were completely denied by Biffo and Lenihan.
[...]
The keys to our country are about to be handed over by FF to the European Union/ IMF.
Did the British loose their sovereignty when they were bailed out by the IMF in 1976?

If the events back then were to be examined we might get more sensible debate instead of the current hysteria.
 

Libero

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Did the British loose their sovereignty when they were bailed out by the IMF in 1976?

If the events back then were to be examined we might get more sensible debate instead of the current hysteria.
We can examine those events of 1976, but I'm not sure what lessons we can draw from the time about loss of sovereignty or any other aspect.

Back then, the Cold War was in full swing, and the UK was a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a key ally of the United States and West Germany, and a lynchpin of NATO's nuclear force posture.

The wider context was very, very different to Ireland in 2010.
 

An Chuileog

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We can examine those events of 1976, but I'm not sure what lessons we can draw from the time about loss of sovereignty or any other aspect.

Back then, the Cold War was in full swing, and the UK was a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a key ally of the United States and West Germany, and a lynchpin of NATO's nuclear force posture.

The wider context was very, very different to Ireland in 2010.
It is true that the world political situation was different then as it was in the 1920s/30s. I asked the question "Did the British loose their sovereignty when they were bailed out by the IMF in 1976?" in order to bring some sense to this debate.

The answer to my question is the British did not loose any sovereignty because they had made the necessary fiscal adjustments before they were forced to do so.
 

Sucker Punch

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You know this bailout will probably come with a lot of stipulations.

Could we not beg the EU to make it a stipulation that we'll accept being bailed out as long as Fianna Fail are removed from power as part of the deal?

Give me EU Bureaucrats over Irish Gombeens anyday!
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin,
 

kodak

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They will make us pay for having sent the Gombeen McCreevy to Europe.
 

turdsl

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They`ll know all about it when salaries,services and thousands more jobs are cut!!! The ignorance of some people is beyond belief -they almost deserve what`s coming to them.
just looking at news now there 67 billion been put together for us. There goes our corporation tax and thousands of jobs.
 

An Chuileog

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penates View Post
You know this bailout will probably come with a lot of stipulations.

Could we not beg the EU to make it a stipulation that we'll accept being bailed out as long as Fianna Fail are removed from power as part of the deal?

Give me EU Bureaucrats over Irish Gombeens anyday!
Quote:
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin,
All loans come with stipulations. The problem is that the Irish banks forgot to apply any of the important stipulations. If they had we would be in this mess. Stipulations are there to protect the lender and the taxpayer from having to bail out reckless banks. Stipulations are good!

In an aside, the theories of Ben Franklin have not stood the test of time. :oops:
 


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