It's all the EU's fault.

physicist

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And the UK! Everyone overspent and borrowed too much. The difference is that those in the Eurozone are screwed because Germany is doing very well and teh Euro is run for the German economy whereas those out of the Eurozone can print away and devalue. Some looney leftie on here this morning was trying to argue that the Euro fits all and that I was some kind of Europhobe. The Left always resort to name calling when in the wrong. Well, the Euro does not fit all and therefore Ireland, Spain and Portugal will be made to suffer for being a member of the Euro club.
That said, it was not the Euro per se that caused Ireland's demise, it was weak Government and personal greed. The Euro just facilitated this by introducing interest rates that were too low for the Irish economy.
Didn't include the UK, last time I checked the UK was an EU country outside the Eurozone. The likes of San Marino, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Andorra, VCS and I think the Kosovo region, non-EU countries tied to the currency as examples of the Euro outside the EU to contrast.
 


A view from England

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Didn't include the UK, last time I checked the UK was an EU country outside the Eurozone. The likes of San Marino, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Andorra, VCS and I think the Kosovo region, non-EU countries tied to the currency as examples of the Euro outside the EU to contrast.
My point being that the UK is outside of the Eurozone but facing severe austerity measures! Incidently caused by the reckless borrowings of a Socialist Government.:shock2:
 
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The EU and ECB aren't without fault here, and the whole Euro project is insane, but this was the doing of Ahern and McCreevey, with the full help and support of Harney and Cowen. Even had we complete, unfettered control of interest rates and everything else, we'd have still chosen to use them to accelerate towards the cliff's edge rather than apply the brakes, such were the unprincipled and/or reckless lunatics in charge in that period. All hail the gods of pro-cyclicality and deregulation!
 

jmayo

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Does Europe even need this vile Institution anymore?
I'd say some Germans, Dutch, French, etc are asking the exact same thing about Ireland. :rolleyes:

The Irish goverment systematically abused their Eurozone membership to funnel cheap credit into Ireland and then setup a tax system that encouraged citizens to speculate on property, transferring this cheap credit into the pockets of the nation's elite via the people. ECB director Wim Duisenberg warned McCreevey 10 years ago that he was creating a bubble but nobody listened.

That is not the fault of Europe. I'm upset that Europe is now screwing us to save their own banks who gambled and lost at Casino Ireland, but we created our own mess, not them.
Well said.
 

Al.

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Does Europe even need this vile Institution anymore?
Fact is it never did. It's merely a vehicle to increase Germany's dominance, as it was planned back in the 1950s.

Anyone ever think about the parallels of what the EU's doing to Greece, Ireland and the rest of the "weaker" EU countries, to the economic plans of one Walther Funk? Coincidence?
 

Watcher2

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How is it not the fault of europe . Ill admit ff and our banks have a lot of blame but europe must take its portion of it as well .
"Europe" made its own policies, it was up to our fellas to adapt to those policies and ensure any negative effects were compensated for.

Stop blaming everyone or anybody else. Our feckers couldn't wait to sign up to the euro and any of the treaties that came our way. They even made us vote twice for both Nice and Lisbon.

This is NOT Europes fault, it is of our own making.
 

smitchy2

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Shocking thread from an idiot.

Please remove the “all” from the title and you may start a debate.
We went into the Euro on our own freewill. It was up to our politicians, academics and media to warn us of the negatives.

Considering the hole we were in the 70s I think the EU has done a lot more good than bad.
If our politicians (FF/PDs) had followed the Berlin over the Boston model maybe things would not of got so bad.
 

Sariel

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My point being that the UK is outside of the Eurozone but facing severe austerity measures! Incidently caused by the reckless borrowings of a Socialist Government.:shock2:
Your government is choosing to instigate austerity measures. You are not been forced like eurozone members. You are immune from default because your government issues its own liabilities/debt. Don't believe for one minute that the market is foisting this on you, it is not. You have higher levels of debt than most European countries but the market is now starting to distinguish the monetary sovereign from the non-sovereign.

And been able to devalue is not that important because a government that issues its own freely floating non-convertible currency can never become insolvent and is able to service all obligations that are due in its own currency. That is what is important.;)
 

Watcher2

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Your government is choosing to instigate austerity measures. You are not been forced like eurozone members. You are immune from default because your government issues its own liabilities/debt. Don't believe for one minute that the market is foisting this on you, it is not. You have higher levels of debt than most European countries but the market is now starting to distinguish the monetary sovereign from the non-sovereign.

And been able to devalue is not that important because a government that issues its own freely floating non-convertible currency can never become insolvent and is able to service all obligations that are due in its own currency. That is what is important.;)
And its what the ECB should be doing. Print the money required and put it to use.
 

Squire Allworthy

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The Irish goverment systematically abused their Eurozone membership to funnel cheap credit into Ireland and then setup a tax system that encouraged citizens to speculate on property, transferring this cheap credit into the pockets of the nation's elite via the people. ECB director Wim Duisenberg warned McCreevey 10 years ago that he was creating a bubble but nobody listened.

That is not the fault of Europe. I'm upset that Europe is now screwing us to save their own banks who gambled and lost at Casino Ireland, but we created our own mess, not them.
+1

What never ceases to amaze me is that people who want sound money also seem to want their own currency so they can print money and play about with the interest rates.

You join the EuroZone and concomitant with that must be a realisation that you have to act within its limitations.

There is much wrong with the institutions in the EuroZone, its banks and its regulatory framework and much needs to be changed to ensure that there is effective control on money supply, that speculation costs are shouldered by speculators, that banks are not casinos and that governments live within their means.

To get out of where Ireland is now needs the obligations of Banks to be underwritten and regulated by a Eurozone body and not the member states. In that sense it is a EuroZone problem, but let us not forget the people who made all this an Irish problem.

If this was solely a EuroZone problem then why are all EuroZone countries not inflicted with property booms?

Ireland like the UK has suffered from poor government for over a decade.
 

Sariel

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And its what the ECB should be doing. Print the money required and put it to use.
It is not the central bank that has the power, it is the Treasury who is in control of the currency. The ECB is not like the FED who can fall back on the US Treasury to fund it if it buys bad assets and eats into its capital. Who can the ECB fall back on?

The ECB gets its capital fom the National Central Banks who get it from the governments but the eurozone governments are market constrained and therefore can become insolvent, and so the ECB can infact become insolvent if it runs low on capital it will have to turn to the member states to replenish its capital. The US Fed can always turn to the US Treasury who are in control of the US currency. The same applies to the UK.
 

Watcher2

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+1

What never ceases to amaze me is that people who want sound money also seem to want their own currency so they can print money and play about with the interest rates.

You join the EuroZone and concomitant with that must be a realisation that you have to act within its limitations.

There is much wrong with the institutions in the EuroZone, its banks and its regulatory framework and much needs to be changed to ensure that there is effective control on money supply, that speculation costs are shouldered by speculators, that banks are not casinos and that governments live within their means.

To get out of where Ireland is now needs the obligations of Banks to be underwritten and regulated by a Eurozone body and not the member states. In that sense it is a EuroZone problem, but let us not forget the people who made all this an Irish problem.

If this was solely a EuroZone problem then why are all EuroZone countries not inflicted with property booms?

Ireland like the UK has suffered from poor government for over a decade.
The Eurozone problem now is a fiscal problem which has part of its roots based on a property boom in some of the member states.

The greed of the bond markets is also part of the problem. Make no mistake, them boys have made there money from Irelands woes, and Greece's and soon (probably as I type) from Portugal.
 

Watcher2

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It is not the central bank that has the power, it is the Treasury who is in control of the currency. The ECB is not like the FED who can fall back on the US Treasury to fund it if it buys bad assets and eats into its capital. Who can the ECB fall back on?

The ECB gets its capital fom the National Central Banks who get it from the governments but the eurozone governments are market constrained and therefore can become insolvent, and so the ECB can infact become insolvent if it runs low on capital it will have to turn to the member states to replenish its capital. The US Fed can always turn to the US Treasury who are in control of the US currency. The same applies to the UK.
So who controls the money supply? I was always of the view that it is the ECB which decides how many notes and coins are printed. I also believe that the actual printing presses are in members states but they cant just go off and print the damn stuff without the say so of the ECB. Is that not correct?
 

Sariel

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So who controls the money supply? I was always of the view that it is the ECB which decides how many notes and coins are printed. I also believe that the actual printing presses are in members states but they cant just go off and print the damn stuff without the say so of the ECB. Is that not correct?
No one can control the money supply, commercial banks create credit but when they do they create an asset and a liability at the same time. There is no new net-financial assets created, so in the private sector as a whole:

assets + liabilities = 0

You can never determine the money supply, what if I went to a bank and took out a loan, and gave it to you and you used a fraction of it to pay off a loan. By your action you have reduced the money in circulation.

The ECB has to supply the amount of notes and coins that the public requires but notes and coins are not that important. Money is not a thing it is a relationship between a creditor and a debtor, it comes into its existence when a debtor draws down a loan and is extinguished when a loan is paid back and the contract is terminated. The ECB operates an overdraft financial system, if the public decides it wants to hold more notes and coins the commercial banks have to become more indebted to the eurosystem i.e. they have to borrow from the ECB. The US/UK are asset backed central bank systems which means that if the public wants to hold more notes and coins it sells risk free assets usually government paper to the central bank.

I know what you mean by printing presses but the world is not on a gold standard anymore, money can only come into existance in 2 ways, by the drawing down of a loan and by government deficit spending. It is extinguished by taxing and by a loan being paid back.
 

physicist

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I'd say some Germans, Dutch, French, etc are asking the exact same thing about Ireland. :rolleyes:

Well said.
Maybe they should give these net contributors a clever acronym such as
DISCUFFGANG or FOUNDDKISS (native names)
 

Watcher2

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No one can control the money supply, commercial banks create credit but when they do they create an asset and a liability at the same time. There is no new net-financial assets created, so in the private sector as a whole:

assets + liabilities = 0

You can never determine the money supply, what if I went to a bank and took out a loan, and gave it to you and you used a fraction of it to pay off a loan. By your action you have reduced the money in circulation.

The ECB has to supply the amount of notes and coins that the public requires but notes and coins are not that important. Money is not a thing it is a relationship between a creditor and a debtor, it comes into its existence when a debtor draws down a loan and is extinguished when a loan is paid back and the contract is terminated. The ECB operates an overdraft financial system, if the public decides it wants to hold more notes and coins the commercial banks have to become more indebted to the eurosystem i.e. they have to borrow from the ECB. The US/UK are asset backed central bank systems which means that if the public wants to hold more notes and coins it sells risk free assets usually government paper to the central bank.

I know what you mean by printing presses but the world is not on a gold standard anymore, money can only come into existance in 2 ways, by the drawing down of a loan and by government deficit spending. It is extinguished by taxing and by a loan being paid back.
OK, so the ECB gives a loan to those that need it and then cancels the debt created once the banks use the money to pay off those debts that are causing the problem. I dont care what mechanism they employ to do it, they should just do it.
 
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Oct 2010, Irish Independent

"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

Your country has been bought into Euro-slavedom - Analysis, Opinion - Independent.ie

Financial Times Columnist

''Jean Monnet, the founding father of the EU, believed that European unity was "not an end in itself, but only a stage on the way to the organised world of tomorrow." His successors in Brussels make no secret of the fact that they regard the Union's brand of supranational governance as a global model.''
FT.com / Columnists / Gideon Rachman - Europe

ECB Head Trichet
Governance today is still founded on the notion of sovereign states.. which does not correspond to the new governance needs of an integrated global economy. The big challenge right now is to speed up the move to a system of global governance that fits the new world that we have created over time..''
ECB: Interview with Le Progrès

May 1983, CNN, Congressman Larry McDonald: ''

''There is an elite core in this country that has dominated American society. The Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations. Lets face it they have dominated the state department and pretty much openly.''

''Their objective is to bring about a gradual transition in our society - a dissolving of sovereignty.. You are looking at a group which has worked to bring about a dissolution of national sovereignty, on the road to world government.''

''You have people who are part of the elitist structure that has dominated this country.. You have by their own admission..''

Host: ''The U.N. in the post war era, looked towards world government.. Is there some move that was there in the post war era that now has been dissipated..?''

McDonald: ''I think there are those who realise that moving straight from the prototype of the United Nations into world government is tactically impossible, but fasing out national sovereignty into regional governments and international treaties is the aim.''
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3100752722910819372#

Nov 2009, CNBC News

''It may resolve itself into a global currency crisis. If that unfolds, inevitably you get an allignment under a global world government, a new global currency and a new world order. We may be moving towards that.''
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCKbvbnKlwY
 


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