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It's Not Capitalism or Communism: It's Corruption


Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
1,757
Looking at the threads arguing for and against liberalism, socialism, capitalism etc., they all have exactly the same thing in common with dictatorships.

They are all corrupt! Because they are run by men, and men are corrupt.

Look at Religions! Run by men. Corrupted.

Charities, scandal after scandal. Corrupted.

Why the hell do we expect anything more? It's all we've ever known and yet for some peculiar reason we still live on in hope that somewhere, someone, some group, will emerge, totally uncorruptable and save us.

Can anyone name me one system within the annals of history that has not been corrupt?

So why are we always shocked when it happens? Just a thought.
 

MrBananagrabber

Active member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
208
I agree...most ideologies are formulated with noble intentions, but once implemented, are rapidly corrupted...The greedy and unscrupulous will always find a way to manipulate the system so they can fill their boots. The scum has a tendency to rise to the top with the cream...
 

SideysGhost

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Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
17,716
Something I've been arguing about for years and years myself Lazarus!

Nobody wants to talk about corruption, nobody wants to talk about the effects of corruption, nobody wants to look at why our system is so wide open to being corrupted or what we can do in future to keep the corrupt out, identify the corrupt early, and minimise the damage the corrupt can do.

Not everyone is corrupt though, only a small minority are. The point is that any institution, organisation or position which carries with it power, wealth, a position of "respect and automatic deference" in society, and a lack of accountability - or all four - will actively attract the corrupt and the socio/psychopathic. They flock to these jobs as the power money and deference allows them free reign to carry out their activities and the deference and lack of accountability mechanisms means they're unlikely to get caught or punished if they are caught.

We didn't have an epidemic of rapist priests because religious people with a calling are somehow more prone to kiddy-fiddling. We had an epidemic of rapist priests because the job had huge respect and deference and almost unlimited power and zero checks and balances and was seen as actually being above the civil law of the land - a magnet for scumbag sick weirdos in other words. So they flocked to the priesthood and possibly even outnumbered the genuine religious in there.

Same with bankers, doctors, politicians.

We leave the keys in the lock with a bright neon sign pointing to them, and then act all surprised when we get robbed blind by obvious criminals and loons.

It all comes back to corruption, you are quite right, and our inability to recognise corruption, scams, propaganda, the hard sell and the smooth-talking conman, deliberately pushing our buttons and manipulating our emotional states in order to get us right where these scum want us: dependent and abused. We can't recognise them until it is too late, we don't run checks on people in these positions, the institutions are too slow-moving and incapable of reforming themselves - even if they had the will to reform themselves. But seeing as over decades many of these institutions have become playgrounds for self-serving criminals and sociopaths, where would the impetus for internal reform come from?
 

seanmacc

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Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
1,022
The Eskimo way of life is 100% not corrupted and incorruptible. The main reason they have been able to this is that they have no leaders. All leadership roles are strictly on an advisory basis, nobody gives orders.

Maybe we should all take a look back to they way we used to live and reflect on weather we are better off now as a species then we were 1000 or so years ago (medical advances excepted)
 

Thac0man

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Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
I don't think that any sensible person is suprised by corruption, just occasionally the extent of it.
 

popular1

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Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
3,211
the sad thing is in ireland most of the people would do the same as the ones in power if they had the chance
 
Joined
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Lazarus what happened to your Labour avatar? Are you an Independent now?
I decided to forego the Labour avatar Sean because I am so sick and tired of trying to explain away policies/decisions that I don't understand. The other reason is people assume I'm speaking on behalf of the Labour Party and most times I'm not. I've never been an obedient member of a herd. And I take a vast interest in those who are striving, in these awful times, to try and build a new political party. I am still a Member of Labour but as I explained before, my soul is my own, and it's not for sale, no matter how unfaithful that makes me appear.
 

junius

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Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
3,700
Looking at the threads arguing for and against liberalism, socialism, capitalism etc., they all have exactly the same thing in common with dictatorships.

They are all corrupt! Because they are run by men, and men are corrupt.

Look at Religions! Run by men. Corrupted.

Charities, scandal after scandal. Corrupted.

Why the hell do we expect anything more? It's all we've ever known and yet for some peculiar reason we still live on in hope that somewhere, someone, some group, will emerge, totally uncorruptable and save us.

Can anyone name me one system within the annals of history that has not been corrupt?

So why are we always shocked when it happens? Just a thought.
Almost correct Lazarus! You should have been 80 kms north for the last six weeks at the latest Corrib Gas Oral Hearing where Shell's solicitor virtually leapt from his "specially sprung green chair" every time the word was mentioned. And.......when it was combined with the other one which began with the letter "b" - well............! And, there was the odd woman amongst them too but maybe they can be forgiven for they knew not what they were doing. They were all foreigners so they were not to know that the Irish Government, Mayo County Council etc..... are utterly incapable of applying any restrictions or monitoring anything so they were telling away at their lies and corporate corruption oblivious to the corrupt consequences that could follow their foolish words.

Like the Eskimos, there is a bunch of people in Ireland I don't think have been involved in corruption - the Quakers - Society of Friends. I could stand to be corrected but I never heard of them being accused of corrupt practices. And, the similarity to the Eskimos is that they don't have leaders either. Like the Eskimos, all leadership roles are strictly on an advisory basis too and nobody gives orders.
Do you know, maybe we have hit on something big here? ;) :p :? :) :rolleyes:
 

Radix

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Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
10,031
Life itself moves in cycles of birth and death.

Corruption is part of the way things are. We see the birth and death cycles in an economic way, as boom and bust.

It's what happens in between is what is important.

Sideys Ghost says, "nobody wants to look at why our system is so wide open to being corrupted or what we can do in future to keep the corrupt out, identify the corrupt early, and minimise the damage the corrupt can do."

The use of the word 'system' in this quotation perhaps tells us a lot. History has shown us, that where 'systems' have been set up by man to protect man from himself, they end up doing the exactly the opposite. And the reason for this, is because at the root of all systems is corruptible man.

Some make an entire industry out of promoting a message about 'how bad, man is' as in the focus by Al Gore for example, on the damage that 'bad man' is doing to his immediate 'environment'.

The challenge for modern society is to recognise, that while man is capable of doing 'bad' things, this does not make him inherently 'bad'.

What we need is a coherent political philosophy which while asserting the veracity of the above, goes a step further, and points out that man is capable of great 'good'.

There is a saying that 'we get what we wish for', or that 'the future of man is determined by himself'. If this is true, then we have to start focussing on the 'good' rather than the 'bad'.

But where does this 'good' reside, you ask?

The answer is rather simple in some respects, but it begs that we ask some questions.

What is man? Where did we come from? Where are we going?

The last question has already been answered in the sense that it is we ourselves who will determine this, it has not already been decided.

The first question is linked to the second and can only be answered with reference to truth. Quis est veritas?

That is for each person to discover, on their immensely personal journey from the womb to the tomb. If a person sees this as a seamless garment that has meaning, then they will find will find that meaning if they sincerely seek it.

If one sees this journey as having no meaning, therin there will enter into their lives, with their full permission; corruption!
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
1,757
Seanmacc, rush me info on the eskimo system, please. I always had a fondness for the Brehon Laws which seemed, on the surface anyway, extraordinary advanced and fair.

Quakers, Junius, again, I know little about them, but I do know one person whom I am very fond of who has a connection with them. So I will start a new project. Don't forget me now Seanmacc. Info, please.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
1,757
Life itself moves in cycles of birth and death.

Corruption is part of the way things are. We see the birth and death cycles in an economic way, as boom and bust.

It's what happens in between is what is important.

Sideys Ghost says, "nobody wants to look at why our system is so wide open to being corrupted or what we can do in future to keep the corrupt out, identify the corrupt early, and minimise the damage the corrupt can do."

The use of the word 'system' in this quotation perhaps tells us a lot. History has shown us, that where 'systems' have been set up by man to protect man from himself, they end up doing the exactly the opposite. And the reason for this, is because at the root of all systems is corruptible man.

Some make an entire industry out of promoting a message about 'how bad, man is' as in the focus by Al Gore for example, on the damage that 'bad man' is doing to his immediate 'environment'.

The challenge for modern society is to recognise, that while man is capable of doing 'bad' things, this does not make him inherently 'bad'.

What we need is a coherent political philosophy which while asserting the veracity of the above, goes a step further, and points out that man is capable of great 'good'.

There is a saying that 'we get what we wish for', or that 'the future of man is determined by himself'. If this is true, then we have to start focussing on the 'good' rather than the 'bad'.

But where does this 'good' reside, you ask?

The answer is rather simple in some respects, but it begs that we ask some questions.

What is man? Where did we come from? Where are we going?

The last question has already been answered in the sense that it is we ourselves who will determine this, it has not already been decided.

The first question is linked to the second and can only be answered with reference to truth. Quis est veritas?

That is for each person to discover, on their immensely personal journey from the womb to the tomb. If a person sees this as a seamless garment that has meaning, then they will find will find that meaning if they sincerely seek it.

If one sees this journey as having no meaning, therin there will enter into their lives, with their full permission; corruption!
Radix, when I read your post I was very much down in the dumps, due not to any monumental world event but simply bcause of a very personal attack that was made on me by someone I had no idea even existed until then. I was angry that I apparently had no redress, then I was angry that I allowed this person to upset me, then I was angry that people I had trusted to care for my interests had deserted me, so I was very upset indeed. But when I read your post, then read it again, I had to write it out to remind myself, at a glance, why I am here. Why we are here.

I thank you Radix. Very much. You are very wise.
 

junius

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Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
3,700
CORRUPTION?! It's all here - not too far from Lazarus at all!

Once upon a time in the west - New book launched yesterday in Dublin by one of Ireland's most eminent modern journalists. An essential read for anyone who still thinks that Ireland is not one of the most corrupt spineless countries in the entire world. For years, a small community in North Mayo have suffered severely, fought back, wept, been beaten, been intimidated, ridiculed and falsely criminalised and jailed. Still fighting back. Most have turned a blind eye to the predicament of the community who live along the shores of the magnificent Sruth Fada Conn Bay in North Mayo. Not Lorna Siggins who has stuck with the story years after others turned their backs.


Liamy McNally - Mayo News journalist.

AT last! The classic “All you ever wanted to know about the Corrib gas controversy but were afraid to ask” has arrived. A new book by Lorna Siggins, the Western Correspondent of the Irish Times, will be launched today, October 5. It is an important date in the Corrib calendar because, finally, there is a book that contains the whole controversy between its covers. It includes almost ten pages of a Timeline. The Timeline opens with 1996: Gas discovery reported off Mayo by Enterprise Energy Ireland (EEI), and ends on 24 August 2010: Bord Pleanála hearing into last section of pipeline re-opens. For the record, that hearing concluded last Friday, October 1.
Chapter 1 of the book opens with a slightly earlier reference! Ms Siggins states: “It began some 230 million years ago, or so geologists estimate.” One might say the rest is history but that would be too flippant in describing a story that has ripped a rural community apart. Vested interests from trans-national companies trying to exploit the gas market to state agencies who also wish to see that happen were (and are being) aided and abetted by other state agencies from Government Departments to the Gardaí.
The book will bring many a tear to many an eye. Nobody can read this and not be affected by the sheer brutality of facts that form the history of the Corrib Gas story. The story is one of human pain, loss, community division, betrayal, grief, political opportunism, corporate greed, monumental lies, statutory incompetence, Governmental folly and treachery. How will it ever be explained to future generations that the state could employ hundreds of Gardaí to stand alongside members of a private security firm, backed up by the Irish Navy in defiance of members of a local community?
In 1995, some local people in Rossport refused to let Shell on to their lands to carry out investigative work for the upstream pipeline. It led to the jailing of five men, Willie Corduff, Vincent McGrath, Philip McGrath, Brendan Philbin and Mícheál Ó’Seighin. How will the immortal words of the former MD of Shell, Andy Pyle, be explained to future generations when he asked, “Why not have all of them committed?” The day before the Rossport 5 were committed to prison Shell’s agents, Roadbridge, denied that it had constructed an unauthorised septic tank at the Rossport Compound. It had and thanks to the due diligence of Paddy Mahon from Mayo County Council it was discovered. Some public servants take their jobs seriously and work with integrity. The following day the Rossport 5 were jailed for contempt of court because they refused to allow Shell personnel onto their lands to carry out work. Time after time Shell was asked for documentary proof of the proposed works and they refused to deliver. The Gardaí stood by, at Shell’s side.
The book recalls so many incidents including the fact that “within a week of senior executives of the Corrib consortium – Shell, Statoil and Marathon – meeting the Taoiseach (Bertie Ahern) in 2003, the developers were given ‘unusual access’ to An Bord Pleanála to express their concerns over planning delays for Ballinaboy.”
It is annoying to become aware, one again, of the political shenanigans that are so deeply ingrained in the psyche of this little country. The Green Party Ministers, Éamon Ryan and John Gormley, stick out like sore thumbs. The two who mouthed so much in opposition were unable to deal with the mantle of power in Government.
Lorna Siggins’ book is not a happy read. There is not a happy ending and neither is there a happy start, but it is essential reading. It makes for upsetting reading at times when you discover that people in Mayo have suffered so much for what they believe in. While it is upsetting to turn page after page and notice the forces being stacked against the local community, it is a book that should be read by anyone with an interest in social history, politics, corporate power and Government dealings with corporations and communities. It should be required reading for students and community development personnel. The book is a welcome addition to the history of Mayo and this country. It is written by a fine journalist who never strayed from the truth. Lorna Siggins is to be complimented for undertaking such a task, especially when the Corrib story has been used to whip the local community in north Mayo and others who attempted to tell their story. Lorna has always been a brave journalist. This book testifies to that. We are indebted to her.
Once Upon A Time In The West – The Corrib Gas Controversy written by Lorna Siggins, published by Transworld Ireland, is available in all good bookshops.
 
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Sep 5, 2009
Messages
1,757
I know junius. I would love the energy to do what I would have in the old days. Almost weekly for a while there a certain district judge crucified each and every protester brought before the court. It is sickening and disgusting when one knows exactly who is siding with whom and why.
 

junius

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Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
3,700
So many years...
So many tears!.....

And now the news that Shell's terrorist security firm IRMS has increased the number of its mercenary thugs to 170 in the area...!! What next..... a massacre of innocents when one blows its top? Former Westport garda chief Pat Doyle joins IRMS
As for the judge, what else when one is married to a FF td?
 

seanmacc

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Jan 10, 2009
Messages
1,022
Seanmacc, rush me info on the eskimo system, please. I always had a fondness for the Brehon Laws which seemed, on the surface anyway, extraordinary advanced and fair.

Quakers, Junius, again, I know little about them, but I do know one person whom I am very fond of who has a connection with them. So I will start a new project. Don't forget me now Seanmacc. Info, please.
Inuit / Eskimo Society

http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic28-2-86.pdf

Loads of stuff out there on Google, Wikipedia.

It must be noted though that when the state of Alaska was imposed on the indigenous population they suffered a massive breakdown of society. Murders became common place, drug addiction and alcoholism became rampant and the average life expectancy even fell.

When I lived in the states I met a couple of Native Alaskans and they're pretty pissed of how their old traditional way of life went down the toilet
 
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