James Connolly: the anti immigrant?

cyberianpan

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
16,347
Website
www.google.com
They lived in a time when 38 million people were sent to their deaths in a war over...er...what, exactly? They were within a generation of pregnant women being sent down coal mines and children being sent up chimneys, and the age of consent was twelve.

How comes we never see threads about the misogyny and paedophilia of men like Gladstone, Peel or Asquith? Perhaps because everybody would recognise it for nonsense. I think its about time we saw these regurgitated smears about long dead Irish nationalists as nonsense too.
It was somewhat of a bonkers time...as said...I don't see the merit of discussing unoriginal thinkers in isolation

Also despite what some might contest , record keeping from that era only gives a limited window into activities

cyp
 


Mr Aphorisms

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
5,995
Twitter
crimesofbrits
True dat. Its not as black as white as many would claim.
Would you not agree that the opening post is simplistic ,tired , rhetoric?
Un-effing-believable. You say that whilst praising a post by Seanie that is unequivocally 'simplistic ,tired , rhetoric'. :p
 

Strawberry

Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
17,139
It was somewhat of a bonkers time...as said...I don't see the merit of discussing unoriginal thinkers in isolation

Also despite what some might contest , record keeping from that era only gives a limited window into activities

cyp
I suspect our understanding of any historical era outside living memory has a limited window into activities. There's always somethings lost in translation, so to speak.
 

Alan Alda

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
5,397
Un-effing-believable. You say that whilst praising a post by Seanie that is unequivocally 'simplistic ,tired , rhetoric'. :p
Indeed. This is your baby Mr A. Now we have olli taking it down another level again.
Cambodia= all Socialism ever,apparently:shock2: .
You instigated this madness . Good luck , im outta here !
 

Mr Aphorisms

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
5,995
Twitter
crimesofbrits
Aphorisms - you need to actually read the piece by Connolly - because there is a chasm between what you claim he wrote and what he actually wrote. And I am not talking about 'understanding' here (as the right-wing rainman would claim) - but basic English.
I did, I read all three. I don't agree with some of what he said. The arguments Connolly made are strikingly similar to what is said today, especially around cheap labor for the bosses and not fighting in their own country, as well as some refugees - a minuscule amount verily - who openly support ISIS, similar with the 'rule Britannia' thugs he mentioned. Some of his rhetoric in those pieces was off the wall hyperbole as well. 'The New Plantation'?

You're also ignoring the fact that Connolly was interested in overthrowing the state and setting up a dictatorship of the proletariat, not that Leinster House 8th amendment whinging. i doubt he'd be welcoming ultra conservatives from all walks of life, be they Polish anti communists or Muslim extremists*.

*thankfully, we have few to none.
 

Seanie Lemass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
19,788
Un-effing-believable. You say that whilst praising a post by Seanie that is unequivocally 'simplistic ,tired , rhetoric'. :p

Pointing out the fact that EVERY single socialist revolution has been a total disaster is history, not rhetoric.

What would possess anyone to think that the next socialist revolution will end any differently?

Ollie's graphic is really all you need to know about Marxism.
 

Mr Aphorisms

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
5,995
Twitter
crimesofbrits
Making Waves would have us believe, that if there was no Conscription Act or war going on, Connolly wouldn't have minded an influx of immigrants taking Irish people's jobs. Absolute clap trap, of the highest order and typical Trot nonsense. This is why the left can't make any connection to the working class in western Europe. Everything is either 'right-wing', 'fascist' or the No True Scotsman nonsense inevitably comes out about who is and isn't a socialist.

And go to bed, Seanie. You're off on another mad rant about the reds. Do as I'm doing and hit the hay. Night.
 

Strawberry

Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
17,139
Making Waves would have us believe, that if there was no Conscription Act or war going on, Connolly wouldn't have minded an influx of immigrants taking Irish people's jobs. Absolute clap trap, of the highest order and typical Trot nonsense. This is why the left can't make any connection to the working class in western Europe. Everything is either 'right-wing', 'fascist' or the No True Scotsman nonsense inevitably comes out about who is and isn't a socialist.

And go to bed, Seanie. You're off on another mad rant about the reds. Do as I'm doing and hit the hay. Night.
This isn't really a thread about James Connolly, is it? Its a thread about immigration dressed up in James Connolly's clothes.

For future reference, James Connolly is not Ireland's prophet or deity, we are not bound to live by his words for all time. So any hostility he expressed towards immigrants a hundred years ago has no relevance to any Irish person living today, not even Irish people who admire James Connolly as an historical figure.

Maybe next time just stick to talking about scary moooslims and their jihad.
 

Seanie Lemass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
19,788
Making Waves would have us believe, that if there was no Conscription Act or war going on, Connolly wouldn't have minded an influx of immigrants taking Irish people's jobs. Absolute clap trap, of the highest order and typical Trot nonsense. This is why the left can't make any connection to the working class in western Europe. Everything is either 'right-wing', 'fascist' or the No True Scotsman nonsense inevitably comes out about who is and isn't a socialist.

And go to bed, Seanie. You're off on another mad rant about the reds. Do as I'm doing and hit the hay. Night.

I'm only up!

And about 300 Euro better off than I was two hours ago as well :)

Just think, if you were living in the Socialist Republic of Cuba you wouldn't be lolling off to sleep at half four. You would probably have to be up to queue for three hours to get some bread for your breakfast :lol:
 

cyberianpan

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
16,347
Website
www.google.com
I suspect our understanding of any historical era outside living memory has a limited window into activities. There's always somethings lost in translation, so to speak.
That is indeed the case...which is why I am dubious about the OP...as the max it can achieve...is not in the sweetspot regards effort required

cyp
 

cunnyfunt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
6,768
Why are we constantly amazed that new values that are less than a few decades old and still very contentious were not held by people who lived 100 years ago?
Sectarians killed Jesus didnt ya know....
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Oh holy bejaysus - another right-wing who reads a few quotes from a Marxist and then thinks they know what the Marxist is talking about. And not surprisingly the same right-wing doesn't even read these quotes properly.

:roll:

Today, our trendy lefties have been bought by the Soros and Rothschild Oligarchs. The likes of Chuck Feeney will fund the Irish Left with millions of dollars so as to push an obscenity like so called "Gay Marriage" on the Irish people, and in return, the Irish Lefties campaign to help the Oligarchs get their cheap foreign labour to the detriment of the native Irish worker - 250,000 of whom have been pushed into exile in the last ten years, while our country is being flooded with immigrants.

Well, it's good to remind ourselves that genuine Socialism is against immigrant cheap labour. Both Larkin and Connolly campaigned against it. Marx and Engels wrote against it, and not one Socialist state ever had open borders. Indeed, there were internal passports in the USSR. People couldn't just move to wherever they liked even within the USSR.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Just going through some of Connolly's writings and came across three articles. In these articles, I was astonished to see Connolly's quite anti-immigrant position on the replacement of Irish workers by English and Scottish workers. Words and phrases such as 'fresh hordes' and 'Brit-Huns' I didn't expect to see from Connolly. I knew he was against the importation of cheap labour during the Lockout, but that was natural as it would have merely been another form of 'scab' labour braking the strike.

Basically, Connolly was saying that English and Scottish men were running away from their own struggles in their countries and refusing to fight against conscription. Connolly suggested that Ireland had fought conscription and the English and Scottish workers were driving down wages and forcing Irish workers out of their jobs to join the British army in WW1 whilst the 'Brit-Huns' replaced them. It's often something we hear and I strongly disagree with regarding the current migrant crisis: that the men 'should be fighting in their own country' rather than leaving for others.

Of course, the current migrant crisis is far different to the conscription issue in Britain and WW1 back in the day, but it does go against contemporary republican thinking; that any form of immigration control is 'fascist' and so on:



https://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1916/02/slack1.htm







https://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1916/03/slack2.htm



Now, just edging out Malcolm X as the person I cherish the most from a historical standpoint, I disagree with some of Connolly's sentiments, as his name calling and harsh words were a bit too much. He got one thing crucially correct though: wanting to build alliances with people who hate you and not blaming them for the crimes of their government when they do nothing about it and support it is complete folly:



https://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1916/03/slack3.htm
Excellent OP. We have to press home the point that helping the Oligarchs replace the native workers with immigrant cheap labour is not Socialism. And we see that both the bourgeois right lackeys and the Fake Left are squealing with pain at your OP, so it must be getting it correct. But I would just correct your thread title. Connolly was not anti-immigrant per say, but against the genocidal process of mass immigration.
 

Lúidín

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
7,253
Taidhg: Connolly was not anti-immigrant per say, but against the genocidal process of mass immigration.
That about sums it up.

It's not possible to have socialism or national independence with open borders. That's why the financial elite are pushing for them.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25,560
It is a new plantation, this time with the blessing and connivance of the Parliamentary leaders of the Irish race at home and abroad

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose :?

I have always been an admirer of James Connolly BTW:D
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Oh dear lord, another one who has no idea of where Connolly stood on the Second Socialist International (because OP has never heard of it and doesnt know what the fault lines were).

Connolly didnt oppose unrestricted immigration as a long -term, absolutist position - and this was meaningless in the context of movement of movement of labour by UK nationals within the UK - but on the Marxist analysis of colonisation and imperialism

Put simply, the proletariat of the oppressor nation must fight for the right of secession for the colonies that its “own” nation oppresses, and not support their own working class advantage (ie easily obtained jobs in that colony). Connolly regarded most TUs as essentially collaborating with the imperialists when they turned a blind eye to the position of other workers in their country's colonies.

This is a lot more nuanced than the OP.

He also thought that British TUs were themselves part of the bourgeois system because they represented skilled workers for the most part and did not care about those who were in more precarious jobs. This classic craft conservatism was just another form of oppression.

Connollys views were in the minority in the Second International. Whoops, boys, you'll really get upset now - he did influence Lenin, and his analysis was adopted by the Bolsheviks at the Third Socialist International.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Connolly didnt oppose unrestricted immigration as a long -term, absolutist position
Of course he did. No Socialist has ever supported mass immigration. As I said above, Marx and Engels made it clear how mass immigration is detrimental to the working class. No Socialist state has ever accepted this open borders madness.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Of course he did. No Socialist has ever supported mass immigration. As I said above, Marx and Engels made it clear how mass immigration is detrimental to the working class. No Socialist state has ever accepted this open borders madness.
Mass immigration? You are making points Connolly never made.


I am aware that you are trying to co-opt Connolly as a fellow-traveller, but you simply havent read him in sufficient detail, or have a sound enough grasp of his thought, to do so.
 

Cruimh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
83,462
I think this has to be seen in the context of the trauma of the World War and the clash between nationalism and internationalism, where socialism and nationalism made uneasy bedfellows.

Far more interesting was Pearse's accusation at the turn of the century that emigrants were traitors to Ireland.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top