Jeffrey Epstein politically connected sex offender, seems under prosecuted

redhead

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IMO owedtojoy assesses him correctly. Dershowitz never worked much in actual litigation if at all to any meaningful degree, and where he did, it was usually selective for headline cases with big legal teams and on the appeals/advisor side of it.

Alan's character and influence is also currently getting serious questioning relating to the Epstein saga in addition to the allegations that he is specifically involved in the sexual misconduct at issue, e.g., regarding how local police investigation into Epstein led to the now infamous Acosta deal.
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But as the months wore on with the police building their case, odd things began to happen. When detectives armed with a search warrant entered his home with a video camera, what they found made them suspect he had been tipped off. “The place had been cleaned up,” Reiter said. . . . the prosecutors told him the witnesses were not credible. The prosecutors, Reiter said, suddenly seemed dismissive of the case, and were uncooperative . . .

Epstein, who had a massive bankroll and extensive connections, had assembled a high-powered team of lawyers, including Kenneth Starr, Alan Dershowitz, Jack Goldberger and Jay Lefkowitz. Around this time, Reiter said, the investigation took another strange turn; Epstein’s defense team seemed to know details about the probe before they were made public.

“We believed that the content of our probable cause affidavit eventually, some time after we presented it to the state attorney's office, ended up with the defense attorneys,” Reiter said. “Because minute details that nobody else knew that were in those documents were being refuted and contrary information provided by the defense.” “This,” Reiter said, “never happened to me before in my career.”

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Speculation also surrounds Dershowitz's support of Trump in the impeachment and Trump's involvement in the Epstein saga regarding what he actually knew and did, including but not limited to what led to the infamous Acosta deal, the man of which eventually landed a Cabinet job in the Trump Admin, e.g.,

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A clip that NBC News resurfaced recently shows Trump and Epstein ogling NFL cheerleaders at a party at Mar-a-Lago that year. "They were tight," an anonymous source, who witnessed the two together, told the Post. "They were each other's wingmen." Trump went so far as to call Epstein a "terrific guy" in a 2002 New York Magazine article. "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life," Trump told the magazine.

But public sightings of the two together ended in 2004, when nursing home magnate Abe Gosman's Palm Beach mansion, named the Maison de l'Amitie (The House of Friendship), came on the market in a bankruptcy auction. Both Trump and Epstein wanted the six-acre oceanfront estate for themselves, the Post reported. . . . Joseph Luzinski, who was the property's trustee, told the paper that both men started lobbying him and would talk behind each other's back. When the home hit the auction block in November 2004, Trump came out victorious . . .

Fewer than two weeks after the auction, Palm Beach police received a tip about young women seen coming and going from Epstein's home, according to a deposition the Post found from then-Police Chief Michael Reiter.

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I didn't say anything about his opinion, you seem to be confusing it with fact. If you read the Wikipedia entry you just posted, you'll see that it refers to his background in civil liberties cases.

You also seem to be under the impression I was defending him, I wasn't. In fact, I was responding to a poster who was by pointing out his flaws.
 


O'Sullivan Bere

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I didn't say anything about his opinion, you seem to be confusing it with fact. If you read the Wikipedia entry you just posted, you'll see that it refers to his background in civil liberties cases.

You also seem to be under the impression I was defending him, I wasn't. In fact, I was responding to a poster who was by pointing out his flaws.
Now worries, I knew you were being critical of Dersh.

IMO Dersh routinely cherrypicks his cases (often offering free legal services to do so as an adviser and/or appeals litigator where he can get decisions published with his name credited) when they come with media marquee names with big supporting legal crews and cash flows. He claims they are 'civil liberties' cases and people--speaking generally here--just accept it.

IMO it's all part of a marketing gimmick and he's stretched it all over the place. All trials and appeals can be claimed to be so, especially on the criminal side where it's simply part and parcel of the job for a criminal defence attorney to argue the kinds of things he has.

I also expanded in my own right to bring up the topic of ethical questions surrounding his involvement in the Epstein saga for further conversation development in the thread. That wasn't any knock on your post. :)
 
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redhead

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Now worries, I knew you were being critical of Dersh.

IMO Dersh routinely cherrypicks his cases (often offering free legal services to do so as an adviser and/or appeals litigator where he can get decisions published with his name credited) when they come with media marquee names with big supporting legal crews and cash flows. He claims they are 'civil liberties' cases and people--speaking generally here--just accept it. IMO it's all part of a marketing gimmick and he's stretched it all over the place. All trials and appeals can be claimed to be so, especially on the criminal side where it's simply part and parcel of the job for a criminal defence attorney to argue the kinds of things he has.

I also expanded in my own right to bring up the topic of ethical questions surrounding his involvement in the Epstein saga for further conversation development in the thread. That wasn't any knock on your post. :)
Sure, as I said above, my knowledge of him is based on a biography read/written 30+ years ago, pre-OJ, which was very focused on his early career. I haven't really kept up with what he's done since, bar some of the higher profile stuff.

I was surprised to see him mentioned in the whole thing and his appearance in the Panorama documentary last December. Up until a couple of months ago, I would have believed his version of events, and felt that while Giuffre was being truthful in some respects, she may have been misled into naming some people incorrectly.

However, from my reading in recent months I am becoming more sceptical. Particularly given that Dershowitz's documentary evidence of his whereabouts which he claims to be watertight, apparently amounts to little more than handwritten diary entries.

I also thought his article defending Maxwell was a poor choice. I find Giuffre's assertions against her to be highly plausible and clearly so does the FBI.
There are people gnashing and wailing about how Maxwell won't get a fair trial and about trial by media, who seem to think the justice system works by someone making an accusation and someone else getting arrested, without taking into account the amount of investigation the FBI will have done in order to ensure there is a case to answer.

In my opinion, if innocent, Dershowitz has at best had a profound lapse of judgment and the only other conclusion is that he does indeed have something to hide.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Sure, as I said above, my knowledge of him is based on a biography read/written 30+ years ago, pre-OJ, which was very focused on his early career. I haven't really kept up with what he's done since, bar some of the higher profile stuff.

I was surprised to see him mentioned in the whole thing and his appearance in the Panorama documentary last December. Up until a couple of months ago, I would have believed his version of events, and felt that while Giuffre was being truthful in some respects, she may have been misled into naming some people incorrectly.

However, from my reading in recent months I am becoming more sceptical. Particularly given that Dershowitz's documentary evidence of his whereabouts which he claims to be watertight, apparently amounts to little more than handwritten diary entries.

I also thought his article defending Maxwell was a poor choice. I find Giuffre's assertions against her to be highly plausible and clearly so does the FBI.
There are people gnashing and wailing about how Maxwell won't get a fair trial and about trial by media, who seem to think the justice system works by someone making an accusation and someone else getting arrested, without taking into account the amount of investigation the FBI will have done in order to ensure there is a case to answer.

In my opinion, if innocent, Dershowitz has at best had a profound lapse of judgment and the only other conclusion is that he does indeed have something to hide.
Indeed, and it's another reason why I brought up other issue of concern regarding the infamous Acosta deal and his role in it. The whole matter stinks to high heaven IMO, including but not limited to this provision of that infamous deal: "The United States also agrees that it will not institute any criminal charges against any potential co-conspirators of Epstein, including but not limited to Sarah Kellen, Adriana Ross, Lesley Groff, or Nadia Marcinkova."

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Nobody I spoke to in reporting this piece had ever heard of a provision like it, Dershowitz included. When asked if the provision would in fact protect anyone who had helped Epstein acquire girls, Dershowitz answered, “Yes, those who helped him get girls.”
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O'Sullivan Bere

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Sounds like there are too many people involved for one of them not to make a break for a deal with the Feds. The Feds really shouldn't have enough of an issue with Maxwell or others if any of those released depositions turns into a witness statement against Maxwell. Thing is those depositions really do restrict her ability to do a Fianna Fail and blame it all on the dead guy.
There's certainly known targets they can go after in attempts to flip, e.g.,

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Kellen, along with fellow executive assistants, Lesley Groff, Nadia Marcinkova and Adriana Ross, were named in Epstein's 2008 sweetheart deal as 'potential co-conspirators'. She remained fiercely loyal to Epstein after the deal and along with Marcinkova, visited him dozens of times in jail. In 2010, Kellen was interviewed under oath as part of civil proceedings, along with Epstein's other assistants, about their dealings with the billionaire financier and also asked whether Epstein's close friend, Prince Andrew, was involved with underage girls. Kellen was asked by a lawyer: 'Would you agree with me that Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein used to share under-aged girls for sexual relations?' She replied: 'On the instruction of my lawyer, I must invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege.'
. . .
began dating NASCAR driver Brian Vickers in 2012, where she began popping up in pit lane at his races. The couple became engaged in the summer of 2013 and married in September 2013

. . .
In 2015, the Daily Mail reported that Kellen and Marchinova – who renamed herself Nadia Marcinko and is now a pilot with a company called Aviloop – were operating from $2 million apartments in a Manhattan building that was majority owned by Epstein's brother, Mark. Mark Epstein told the Guardian at the time he owned 'the majority of the units in the Manhattan building' and had never heard of the two women's companies.
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In 2015, The Daily Telegraph reported that Marcinko, during questioning regarding alleged underaged sexual activities had "invoked her right not to incriminate herself, protected by the US constitution’s Fifth Amendment, when she was asked about the Duke of York", who was a frequent guest of Epstein.[15] According to the Miami Herald, Marcinko visited Epstein “more than 70 times when he was in Palm Beach custody,” after his first criminal conviction.
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O'Sullivan Bere

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I hope they can get confessions from Maxwell soon in case she gets suicided.
. . . or anyone else relevant get suicided, e.g.,
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The parents of Ghislaine Maxwell’s accused “lieutenant” Sarah Kellen, worry their daughter could be arrested next in Jeffrey Epstein’s sex trafficking ring, according to a report. “After Maxwell I think Sarah’s next,” Kellen’s mom, Mary Kellen, said as she choked up at the prospect of her daughter’s possible arrest, according to a report by the Daily Mail. . . . “I just hope someone doesn’t go and kill her. There are a lot of prominent, powerful people out there that don’t want anything said,” Mary said.
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Ardillaun

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Thankfully, America‘s enlightened respect for free speech allows us to ask an obvious question here: did Epstein’s Florida legal team (and the many people they hired) step over the line, e.g. bribing, intimidating or otherwise improperly influencing witnesses, local police or attorneys? Acosta himself eventually complained about the treatment his lawyers received; ‘tis a great pity he didn’t call in reinforcements at the time. Looking back, the slap on the wrist for a golden circle boy looks decidedly Irish. At least some justice was eventually delivered.

Dershowitz has already stained his reputation here irrespective of the veracity of the Giuffre allegations. Like many others he championed Epstein at Harvard without paying any attention to what was already known about his wonderful new friend. The guy was a swindler and rumours of his sexual predations were all over the place. Dollups of money were enough for brilliant academics to ignore those trivial details.
 
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redhead

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. . . or anyone else relevant get suicided, e.g.,
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The parents of Ghislaine Maxwell’s accused “lieutenant” Sarah Kellen, worry their daughter could be arrested next in Jeffrey Epstein’s sex trafficking ring, according to a report. “After Maxwell I think Sarah’s next,” Kellen’s mom, Mary Kellen, said as she choked up at the prospect of her daughter’s possible arrest, according to a report by the Daily Mail. . . . “I just hope someone doesn’t go and kill her. There are a lot of prominent, powerful people out there that don’t want anything said,” Mary said.
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You really have to wonder at how much society in general tolerates and encourages the kind of activity that went on? I clicked on that article and the most surprising thing was the clickbait directly under it.

An ad for a dating site showing a picture of two girls who looked like they were teenagers with the headline:

Divorced? The best dating site for men over 40 in Dublin.

There's also barely a day passes without the tabloids reporting on some middle-aged male celebrity getting married to the "love of his life" who happens to be the same age as his children, presumably had with the previous "love of his life".
 

Lumpy Talbot

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'Dating sites for men over 40 in Dublin' would be the new face of prostitution, most likely. I was looking at a box set programme the other day that had Steve Van Zandt as a lead actor, producer and writer on 'Lillyhammer', a sort of nordic chic slow comedy of mixed cultural manners.

But they had Steve, bless 'im, who must be well into his 60s by now shacked up with this woman who looked about 28/30 years of age. You could hear the creaking as Steve leaned in for the big romantic kiss.
 

redhead

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'Dating sites for men over 40 in Dublin' would be the new face of prostitution, most likely. I was looking at a box set programme the other day that had Steve Van Zandt as a lead actor, producer and writer on 'Lillyhammer', a sort of nordic chic slow comedy of mixed cultural manners.

But they had Steve, bless 'im, who must be well into his 60s by now shacked up with this woman who looked about 28/30 years of age. You could hear the creaking as Steve leaned in for the big romantic kiss.
As in Little Steven? Didn't know he was an actor as well.

That sounds like a candidate for the Most Egregious Age Difference Award (although it's only usually given out for films by the Alliance of Women Film Journslists).
 

McTell

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Well, on that list quoted, three are dead and one is the defendant, so it's actually only 4, albeit very high profile, people, and one is most definitely not a Yankee and unlikely to appear in a US Court given his status.

Not sure about ex-presidents, or vice presidents, or lawyers known for defending the guilty.

The story goes back to the 1990s, and the 3 then-young ladies who are the complainants have quoted dozens of the rich, most but not all democratic party supporters and givers - like epstein himself.

And they've wondered what happened to 500 odd other girls who disappeared, wondering if they were murdered. So this is worse than watergate if the accusations are true.

However the charge sheet is just ms maxwell "trafficking". But let's recall than for one flight the girl was given a week's notice. That's not quite the same trafficking as being forcibly dragged from the back of a van into a brothel?


Annyhoo, maxwell has just won a hearing over whether what she said in a civil case can be used in this crim case....



.
 
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redhead

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The story goes back to the 1990s, and the 3 then-young ladies who are the complainants have quoted dozens of the rich, most but not all democratic party supporters and givers - like epstein himself.

And they've wondered what happened to 500 odd other girls who disappeared, wondering if they were murdered. So this is worse than watergate if the accusations are true.

However the charge sheet is just ms maxwell "trafficking". But let's recall than for one flight the girl was given a week's notice. That's not quite the same trafficking as being forcibly dragged from the back of a van into a brothel?


Annyhoo, maxwell has just won a hearing over whether what she said in a civil case can be used in tis crim case....

You seem to be confusing kidnapping with trafficking. These are separate offences. As are human trafficking and sex trafficking.

Sex trafficking can involve force and kidnapping, but it can also involve being coerced.

Legal Definition of sex trafficking

: the illegal business of recruiting, harboring, transporting, obtaining, or providing a person and especially a minor for the purpose of sex

 

Wagmore

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OK, this is def how Fake News works. The Andy pile-on continues while no mention of the better known Montrose luvvie that was also mentioned. Nauseating but not surprising. What a kip this place is. North Korea like
Same thing in Sindo today. All about Andy but Paddy isn't being told about the other big names accused of flying on the Lolita Express. Well paid PR reps obviously in the ear of those making the editorial calls. Paddy stays dumb and primed for attendance at next rent-a-crowd Beano in College Green
 

McTell

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You seem to be confusing kidnapping with trafficking. These are separate offences. As are human trafficking and sex trafficking.

Sex trafficking can involve force and kidnapping, but it can also involve being coerced.

Legal Definition of sex trafficking

: the illegal business of recruiting, harboring, transporting, obtaining, or providing a person and especially a minor for the purpose of sex


If you don't mind me filleting that definition...

"transporting, .. a person ...for the purpose of sex"

...could include driving your girlfriend home after a night on the tiles. If she subsequently regrets your love, and sues you for trafficking her from a to b, what hope do you have?
 

toughbutfair

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'Dating sites for men over 40 in Dublin' would be the new face of prostitution, most likely. I was looking at a box set programme the other day that had Steve Van Zandt as a lead actor, producer and writer on 'Lillyhammer', a sort of nordic chic slow comedy of mixed cultural manners.

But they had Steve, bless 'im, who must be well into his 60s by now shacked up with this woman who looked about 28/30 years of age. You could hear the creaking as Steve leaned in for the big romantic kiss.
Not sure what your point is. A normal man in his 60s would prefer a 30 year old woman in their bed than a woman their age. However, assuming average wealth, it is close to impossible. I admire Fabio Briatore , who in his 50s and looking much older was screwing model Heidi Klum who was in her 20s. He quickly got her pregnant.
 

petaljam

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If you don't mind me filleting that definition...

"transporting, .. a person ...for the purpose of sex"

...could include driving your girlfriend home after a night on the tiles. If she subsequently regrets your love, and sues you for trafficking her from a to b, what hope do you have?
Funny enough that isn't how the law works though.

It's almost as though everyone knows perfectly well that it's not about driving your girlfriend home.

Except a few people on the Internet. :rolleyes:
 

petaljam

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Not sure what your point is. A normal man in his 60s would prefer a 30 year old woman in their bed than a woman their age. However, assuming average wealth, it is close to impossible. I admire Fabio Briatore , who in his 50s and looking much older was screwing model Heidi Klum who was in her 20s. He quickly got her pregnant.
I

I think his point is that a normal woman in their 30s doesn't want to be in bed with a man in his 60s either. And toy boys exist too, but that doesn't mean it's a career many people would want to see their sons choosing.
 

McTell

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Funny enough that isn't how the law works though.

It's almost as though everyone knows perfectly well that it's not about driving your girlfriend home.

Except a few people on the Internet. :rolleyes:

Yes, because in this case it's about consensually coming along for the ride.. and the ride. Being invited, being paid a lot and not being physically restrained.

Then changing your mind long after, and in some cases after you've already been paid compo (in the florida case).

I agree of course there is no defence when the girl is under age at the time, but that wasn't always the case.

Fact is, the feds left this saga alone for much too long because of the political angles.
 

toughbutfair

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I

I think his point is that a normal woman in their 30s doesn't want to be in bed with a man in his 60s either. And toy boys exist too, but that doesn't mean it's a career many people would want to see their sons choosing.
If you were poor and you had a pretty daughter, wouldn’t you be happy to see her marry “above her” (in historical sense) and know that your grandchildren will have a better life than you? Your family ,albeit not your surname, moves up the social scale.
 


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