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Jesus was not the son of God according to new amazon doc



Lumpy Talbot

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No, with respect, that's the typical wishy-washy BS you get a lot of these days. There can be no grey areas with JC. To paraphrase CS Lewis, JC was an out and out crazy person or, alternatively, who he said he was. We all make are own call on that but i's important to know what you're making your call on before you accept or deny.
Well, of the three 'kings of the jews' known to have been dragged up before the Roman governor at the time one was adjudged mad, the other one when asked directly if he was 'king of the jews' shied at that hurdle and said he wasn't, and wandered off into obscurity.

The third refused to deny it, got nailed up as people openly seditious against the Empire usually ended up, and from there it was all woo-woo from the estimated 120 followers he is thought to have had at the time.

Robin Lane-Fox, University of Oxford Reader of Ancient History along with Gibbon are very good on the subject and the general dispelling of the mythology layered on top since.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Much the same woo-woo that was constructed around the 'lives of the saints' in fact.
 

publicrealm

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Well, of the three 'kings of the jews' known to have been dragged up before the Roman governor at the time one was adjudged mad, the other one when asked directly if he was 'king of the jews' shied at that hurdle and said he wasn't, and wandered off into obscurity.

The third refused to deny it, got nailed up as people openly seditious against the Empire usually ended up, and from there it was all woo-woo from the estimated 120 followers he is thought to have had at the time.

Robin Lane-Fox, University of Oxford Reader of Ancient History along with Gibbon are very good on the subject and the general dispelling of the mythology layered on top since.

But surely you don't doubt the hierarchy of the Choirs of Angels - Thrones, Dominations, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. (I may be missing one or two - I'm a bit rusty).
 

Calculusmadeeasy

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There is a thread about a scholer who claims Jesus was entirely a mythical figure, and the deeds ascribed to him were borrowed or invented.

Story of Jesus Fabricated Claims US scholar Joseph Atwill

This scholar's thesis is actually more interesting than the one on which this OP is based. Apollonius of Tyana is fairly well known, and the resemblance to Jesus' have been noted before.

Apollonius of Tyana - Wikipedia

It is quite possible that Jesus was a mythical figure, but it is hard not be feel that, like other mythical figures such as King Arthur or Robin Hood, there was a real person behind the stories.
Some people refer to the Bible as hokum. I'd love to know how much he made from that...hokum.

It's possible I suppose. In an effort to drag the seppos into WW2, British Intelligence commissioned heart wrenching novels about clog hopping childer escaping the clutches of Nazis - naturally enough they were assisted by kindly British commandos.

Roman Military intelligence writing the NT? Did Roman scholars study Torah, or did they hire Jewish quislings to do it for them?
 

SideysGhost

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Well, it would tie in with the curious fact that all the early Christian churches appear in Anatolia and nowhere near Judea.

I'm pretty firmly in the mythicist camp myself, and the entire thing being a reaction by the diaspora to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Though of course it is always possible that snippets of the lives of real prophets/loons like this Appollonius geezer got assimilated into the myth as it mutated and spread across Asia Minor. Prophets and Messiahs and God-men were a dime a dozen back in those days and the entire region of the old Hellenic world shared a lot of root cultural assumptions - which is why is is so easy to draw parallels between so many regional myths and Jebus. They are all just variations on a theme.

Evidence of actual Christians anywhere near the alleged Ground Zero in Galillee in the 1st/2nd centuries is pretty damn scant though. Mark has clearly never been anywhere near the place as he makes numerous blatant howlers of geography. The closest group geographically appear to be in Antioch. And Christians don't enter the historical record until Pliny The Younger stumbles across them while Governor of Bithynia (NW Turkey) in 112AD.

It wasa tiny fringe apocalyptic cult scattered around the edges of the eastern Empire for hundreds of years, that just happened to catch the zeitgeist of the declining and collapsing Empire in the 3rd and 4th century.
 

Dame_Enda

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Some Roman critics claimed Christs actual father was a Roman soldier called Panthera.
 

Calculusmadeeasy

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Well, it would tie in with the curious fact that all the early Christian churches appear in Anatolia and nowhere near Judea.

I'm pretty firmly in the mythicist camp myself, and the entire thing being a reaction by the diaspora to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Though of course it is always possible that snippets of the lives of real prophets/loons like this Appollonius geezer got assimilated into the myth as it mutated and spread across Asia Minor. Prophets and Messiahs and God-men were a dime a dozen back in those days and the entire region of the old Hellenic world shared a lot of root cultural assumptions - which is why is is so easy to draw parallels between so many regional myths and Jebus. They are all just variations on a theme.

Evidence of actual Christians anywhere near the alleged Ground Zero in Galillee in the 1st/2nd centuries is pretty damn scant though. Mark has clearly never been anywhere near the place as he makes numerous blatant howlers of geography. The closest group geographically appear to be in Antioch. And Christians don't enter the historical record until Pliny The Younger stumbles across them while Governor of Bithynia (NW Turkey) in 112AD.

It wasa tiny fringe apocalyptic cult scattered around the edges of the eastern Empire for hundreds of years, that just happened to catch the zeitgeist of the declining and collapsing Empire in the 3rd and 4th century.
Modern Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor did first century Jews. I'd be surprised if many 1st century Jews heard of Jesus of Nazareth.

There were a plethora of self proclaimed Messiahs around at that time - the vast majority of them faded into obscurity. Christ himself would have been a nobody had Pilate decided against crucifixion.

Christianity was not a "fringe apocalyptic cult" in the 3rd/4th century AD. It was flourishing at that time.

Were you sniffing from a bottle of bar keeper's friend?
 

Catalpast

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[video=youtube;TFwc_VNOqjA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFwc_VNOqjA[/video]

Jesus Christ , explosive Amazon Prime documentary claims

"The doc's claim suggests a Greek man named Apollonius may have been the true face behind the New Testament.

The preacher, who was born around the same time as Jesus in Central Anatolia, is said to share a number of striking similarities.

These include preaching arguably the same things, having a large crowd of loyal followers and performing miracles.

The controversial series also explains how Apollonius rose to prominence by gathering religious followers during his miraculous action."

Has anyone on p.ie seen this documentary? It seems like something akin to Ancient Aliens or the like on the so called "History" Channel. Also does anyone know if this is the first time such a theory has been floated?

I have never heard of Apollonius of Tyan but have heard it suggested that Pythagorean philospohy was hugely influential on early Christianity - is that the source of the conflation between the two personalities?
Oh dear children

There is a rather gaping hole in these attempts to confuse the Historical Record here.

Apollonius of Tyan did indeed share some of his life span with our Lord Jesus Christ

- but died over 60 years after the Resurrection

He did not know Christ and never claimed any of these things now attributed to him.

He was a decent enough fellow but followed an older Philosophy - Neo-Pythagoreanism.

The earliest and by far the most detailed source is the Life of Apollonius of Tyana, a lengthy, novelistic biography written by the sophist Philostratus at the request of empress Julia Domna. She died in 217 AD.,[5] and he completed it after her death, probably in the 220s or 230s AD
Apollonius of Tyana - Wikipedia

This is the earliest biography of him - written some 130 years after his death

- and long after the Gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John.

It is obvious that Philostratus drew the inspiration for much of his biography from these Sources.


The works on the Life and Mission of Jesus Christ long precede what we know of Apollonius

- please do not confuse the two.
 

kerdasi amaq

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I'm not convinced by this Apollonius guy.
What's his record when it comes to turning water into wine?

(Yes, I know anyone with a bladder can turn wine into water. What we are looking for here is somebody with special powers)
The real question is: who was marrying whom? That's what I want to know.

It's quite possible that there is a mundane explanation for this event.
 

jmcc

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This is the earliest biography of him - written some 130 years after his death

- and long after the Gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John.

It is obvious that Philostratus drew the inspiration for much of his biography from these Sources.
Isn't there a mention of the Christians and Christ (I think) in some of Josephus' works?
 

SideysGhost

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Isn't there a mention of the Christians and Christ (I think) in some of Josephus' works?
Two alleged ones though one is pretty much accepted by everyone, even Christian scholars, as a much later forgery/interpolation - and the other is ambiguous though most likely given the surrounding context actually refers to Jesus ben Ananias, an actual historical figure.

So yeah, naw.

Almost all the "sources for a historical Jesus" that Christian like to trot out....don't really stand up to scrutiny, to be polite about it.

The first unambiguous secular reference to Christians in the historical record is Pliny's letters to Trajan in 112AD. Though many of the Christian texts themselves do date earlier - the genuine Pauline epistles are the oldest and (probably) from the 50s and 60s AD, then Mark sometime in the early 70s.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Isn't there a mention of the Christians and Christ (I think) in some of Josephus' works?
Yeah but old Joe wasn't the most reliable. He was effectively writing for the Middle Eastern Roman Sunday Independent.
 


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