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John Bruton is a Carsonite.


pfinnegan

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Aug 31, 2006
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John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

"Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
blasphemy."

Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.

<mod>Please do not spam the site with numerous versions of the same thread</mod>
 
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You do realise that Carson was oppsed to partition as well. He believed that all of Ireland would be best served in the Union. Not quite the same thing that FG and John Bruton believe, despite your best efferts to portray otherwise
 

commentator

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94% of the southern Irish are carsonite in that case since that is the percentage which voted to legitimise the Union of Great Britain and N.I. some years ago.
 

White Horse

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Jun 13, 2006
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7,064
pfinnegan said:
John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

"Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
blasphemy."

Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.
No Irish nationalist wanted to partition Ireland. It was inevitable, however, whn the Gaelic separatists decided that unity was less important than anti-Britishness.

John Bruton is a true anti-partitionist. He believes that a British unionist is as Irish as Jackie Healey-Rae. Republicans want unionists to repent the sins and recant. They want them to abandon their identity and culture and try to be good plastic paddies.

Fine Gael stands apart from other successors to Sinn Fein and they want to unify the Irish people, not reclaim land through a victory, whether violent or polticial.
 

pfinnegan

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voiceofretribution said:
You do realise that Carson was oppsed to partition as well. He believed that all of Ireland would be best served in the Union. Not quite the same thing that FG and John Bruton believe, despite your best efferts to portray otherwise
Wrong.

On January First 1913 Carson proposed an amendment to the 1912 Home Rule Bill that proposed excluding the nine counties of Ulster. Later he recommended acceptance of the Government Of Ireland Act 1920(aka Fourth Home Rule Bill) which legislated for the partition of Ireland under a dual parliament Home Rule framework; Home Rule for the North, Home Rule for the South. Of course he would have rather have no Home Rule at all but when presented with the inevitability of a Home Rule solution to the Irish Question he opted for and campaigned for partition which we know was violently opposed by all shades of Nationalism and Southern Unionists who resented being abandoned by Carson.

Bottom line; Carson supported partition, same as Fine Gael.
 

pfinnegan

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Aug 31, 2006
Messages
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White Horse said:
pfinnegan said:
John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition. Redmond opposed partition, believed Ulster Unionists should be coerced by force into a United Ireland and endorsed the IVF, precursor to the IRA. His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.


Redmond - Limerick October 12th 1913.

"Irish Nationalists can never be assenting parties to the mutilation of
the Irish nation; Ireland is a unit. It is true that within the bosom of
a nation there is room for diversities of the treatment of government
and of administration, but a unit Ireland is and Ireland must
remain.... The two-nation theory is to us an abomination and a
blasphemy."

Now you could cut and paste that straight into a Fianna Fail election manifesto.
No Irish nationalist wanted to partition Ireland. It was inevitable, however, whn the Gaelic separatists decided that unity was less important than anti-Britishness.

John Bruton is a true anti-partitionist. He believes that a British unionist is as Irish as Jackie Healey-Rae. Republicans want unionists to repent the sins and recant. They want them to abandon their identity and culture and try to be good plastic paddies.

Fine Gael stands apart from other successors to Sinn Fein and they want to unify the Irish people, not reclaim land through a victory, whether violent or polticial.
Fine Gale can stand for what ever it wants but they cannot claim the mantle of John Redmond and the Home Rule Party who were vociferously anti partition.
 

jmcc

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42,304
pfinnegan said:
John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites
I don't know if they would describe themselves as such.

but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition.
Your quaint label for the situation prior to 1916 does not bear much weight in the current situation.

Redmond opposed partition,
Redmond opposed an independent Ireland. So did Carson.

His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.
Hardly unless you just have the merest veneer of a clue.

Regards...jmcc
 

BarryW

Active member
Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
pfinnegan said:
John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition
pfinnegan said:
Bottom line; Carson supported partition, same as Fine Gael
This might sound like an outrageous question, but........have you got anything at all to back this up?

When did John Bruton ever say that he supported Partition?

Did you miss the recent Fine Gael Árd Fheis, where FG members voted unanimously to re-affirm their commitment to end Partition?
 
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'He continued to lead the Unionists but when the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was introduced, advised his party to work for the exemption of six Ulster counties from Home Rule as the best compromise (a compromise he had previously rejected). This proposal passed and as a result the Parliament of Northern Ireland was established. After the partition of Ireland, Carson repeatedly warned Ulster Unionist leaders not to alienate northern Catholics, as he accurately foresaw this would make Northern Ireland unstable. In 1921 he stated: "We used to say that we could not trust an Irish parliament in Dublin to do justice to the Protestant minority. Let us take care that that reproach can no longer be made against your parliament, and from the outset let them see that the Catholic minority have nothing to fear from a Protestant majority." His calls went unheeded.'

[edit]

He initially argued against partition of any kind, believing that one Iirsh state within the Union was the best way for the island of Ireland to Progress, but following the passing of the 3rd home rule bill, he had no option but to support a parliament for ulster.

And you might also like to note that not only do FG support partition as it stands, (the good friday agreement) so do FF, PD's Labour, Greens, Sinn Fein, the SDLP, the UUP and 70% of the people on this entire island.
Judge
 

BarryW

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Messages
262
pfinnegan said:
Bottom line; Carson supported partition
And by the way, Carson was vociferously opposed to Partition - he only accepted it (as better than nothing) when it became clear that Home Rule was inevitable
 

pfinnegan

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Messages
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commentator said:
94% of the southern Irish are carsonite in that case since that is the percentage which voted to legitimise the Union of Great Britain and N.I. some years ago.
Wrong.

Recognition of Northern Ireland is conditional on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement which is effectively joint authority. The GFA weakens the Union to such an extent that Unionists now want to repeal it. Ian Paisley is the modern day Carson.
 

Alliance

Active member
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
162
pfinnegan said:
voiceofretribution said:
You do realise that Carson was oppsed to partition as well. He believed that all of Ireland would be best served in the Union. Not quite the same thing that FG and John Bruton believe, despite your best efferts to portray otherwise
Wrong.

On January First 1913 Carson proposed an amendment to the 1912 Home Rule Bill that proposed excluding the nine counties of Ulster. Later he recommended acceptance of the Government Of Ireland Act 1920(aka Fourth Home Rule Bill) which legislated for the partition of Ireland under a dual parliament Home Rule framework; Home Rule for the North, Home Rule for the South. Of course he would have rather have no Home Rule at all but when presented with the inevitability of a Home Rule solution to the Irish Question he opted for and campaigned for partition which we know was violently opposed by all shades of Nationalism and Southern Unionists who resented being abandoned by Carson.

Bottom line; Carson supported partition, same as Fine Gael.
Wrong.

Carson supported partition with the long term aim of uniting Ireland again. His proposals were not accepted by the Ulster Unionists and he left politics shortly afterwards. His idea was for two parliments which would have looked pretty much like what we have today, both governments dealing with issues of mutal interest and overtime, with consent, they'd join as one all Ireland parliment.

Please. The least you could do before making posts like this, is a small bit of research.
 
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pfinnegan said:
commentator said:
94% of the southern Irish are carsonite in that case since that is the percentage which voted to legitimise the Union of Great Britain and N.I. some years ago.
Wrong.

Recognition of Northern Ireland is conditional on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement which is effectively joint authority. The GFA weakens the Union to such an extent that Unionists now want to repeal it. Ian Paisley is the modern day Carson.
Oh dear you are on a roll today!

I advise you to stop declaring 'wrong' at the beginning of your posts - it has a nasty habbit of coming back to haunt you!

Anway effectively joint authority you say.. So tell me who in the Irsh cabinet is the Northen Ireland Secretary? And tell me what laws have been passed in Leinster House that effected NI directly. And tell me how people in NI can vote for an Irish President? And who can vote for an Irish Parliament? Tell me, where do NI parliament members go? oh yes London! and who's the head of State of NI? yes thats it the Queen. The good friday agreement has safegaurded the unionist veto not only in to NI, but to Ireland as well. Paisley is against it you say, yes, because he thinks it doesn't quite go far enough.. not quite the same as Carson objecting to HR in the first place is it?
 

merle haggard

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Nov 18, 2005
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pfinnegan said:
Wrong.

Recognition of Northern Ireland is conditional on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement which is effectively joint authority. The GFA weakens the Union to such an extent that Unionists now want to repeal it. Ian Paisley is the modern day Carson
no . The DUP have merely insisted the GFA is implemented in full . Having secured surrender of arms , they are also insisting the provos disband their military outfit and join the cops as proof they have given up terrorism for good . Sinn Fein arent moving quickly enough for them on this issue is all . Their previous rejection of the GFA was simply to undermine mister Trimble and move into pole position within unionism , mission accomplished . Mr Trimble had made the mistake of going into partnership with Adams before the GFA had been implemented ( ie arms surrendered , cops joined , militia disbanded) . Since moving into pole position they are now insisting upon Sinn Fein fulfilling the undertakings they had given . Sinn Feins main difficulty seems to be with persuading their own constituency to accept all they negotiated and signed up to on their behalf ..
Bertie Ahern has also made clear that as far as the free state governemnt is concerned the consititutional issue is settled , therell be no joint authority and that the SDLP and Sinn Feins blueprints for unity are nothing more than red herrings . This is a view shared and supported by the rest of the southern establishment who wont now allow discussions about unity to take place in Leinster House as they would upset unionists .
 

merle haggard

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voiceofretribution said:
Oh dear you are on a roll today!

I advise you to stop declaring 'wrong' at the beginning of your posts - it has a nasty habbit of coming back to haunt you!

Anway effectively joint authority you say.. So tell me who in the Irsh cabinet is the Northen Ireland Secretary? And tell me what laws have been passed in Leinster House that effected NI directly. And tell me how people in NI can vote for an Irish President? And who can vote for an Irish Parliament? Tell me, where do NI parliament members go? oh yes London! and who's the head of State of NI? yes thats it the Queen. The good friday agreement has safegaurded the unionist veto not only in to NI, but to Ireland as well. Paisley is against it you say, yes, because he thinks it doesn't quite go far enough.. not quite the same as Carson objecting to HR in the first place is it?
very well pointed out
 

pfinnegan

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jmcc said:
pfinnegan said:
John Bruton and a large number of Fine Gaelers like to think they are Redmonites
I don't know if they would describe themselves as such.

Wrong.

Redmond is John Bruton's hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bruton


but in fact they are Carsonites i.e. Southerners who support partition.
Your quaint label for the situation prior to 1916 does not bear much weight in the current situation.

Wrong.

Carson is Ian Paisley's hero. Carson's arguments are Paisley's arguments. Carson is still influential.


[quote:rcvk2ehf]Redmond opposed partition,
Redmond opposed an independent Ireland. So did Carson.

So what. I never said Redmond supported an Independent Ireland. He opposed partition, under a home rule framework.


His views on partition were similar to the ideas of de Valera and Adams.
[/quote:rcvk2ehf]Hardly unless you just have the merest veneer of a clue.

His views on partition are very close to de Velera's. I did not imply that Redmond shared de Valera's political ideology. Don't assume that everyone who opposes partition is republican.
 

hiker

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John Bruton is a Carsonite.

Does that mean he frightens the sh1te out of Superman?











sorry could'nt resist :oops:
 
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