Judaism and Zionism are not separate from one another.

L'Chaim

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A wonderful article from The Times Of Israel explaining how "Zionism is at core about Jewish national self-determination in the Jewish historic homeland. Zionism itself cannot be discussed as something that is separate from and different to Judaism, the civilisation of the Jewish people. Zionism is an intrinsic component of Judaism."
Zionism explained to a Muslim friend | Julie Nathan | The Blogs | The Times of Israel

"The standard mantra of anti-Israel activists is that Judaism and Zionism are entirely separate from one another. This is a convenient, but entirely false and artificial, rhetorical device for overcoming the widespread perception that many anti-Zionists are antisemites in disguise. By attempting to separate Zionism from Judaism, anti-Zionists try to delude others (if not themselves) into thinking that one can plausibly claim not to hate the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, but “only” to hate the only Jewish-majority State in the world."

I totally agree with the writer of this piece.
 


D

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A wonderful article from The Times Of Israel explaining how "Zionism is at core about Jewish national self-determination in the Jewish historic homeland. Zionism itself cannot be discussed as something that is separate from and different to Judaism, the civilisation of the Jewish people. Zionism is an intrinsic component of Judaism."
Zionism explained to a Muslim friend | Julie Nathan | The Blogs | The Times of Israel

"The standard mantra of anti-Israel activists is that Judaism and Zionism are entirely separate from one another. This is a convenient, but entirely false and artificial, rhetorical device for overcoming the widespread perception that many anti-Zionists are antisemites in disguise. By attempting to separate Zionism from Judaism, anti-Zionists try to delude others (if not themselves) into thinking that one can plausibly claim not to hate the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, but “only” to hate the only Jewish-majority State in the world."

I totally agree with the writer of this piece.
Are you suggesting that any opposition to or criticism of the Israeli state is anti-Semitic? If you're not I don't understand the reference to anti-Israeli activists that I have highlighted.
 

Clanrickard

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The OP is wrong. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is political. Some Jews are not Zionists. You can also be non-Jewish and a Zionist.
 

eoghanacht

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Incoming!
 

eoghanacht

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The OP is wrong. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is political. Some Jews are not Zionists. You can also be non-Jewish and a Zionist.
They're not considered real jews.
 

Wascurito

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The OP is wrong. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is political. Some Jews are not Zionists. You can also be non-Jewish and a Zionist.
Indeed. I'm not Jewish but I consider myself to be a Zionist.
 

Mick Mac

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razorblade

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Judaism is a religion, Zionism is a political movement, two separate entities, not all Jews are Zionist and indeed not all Zionist are Jews.
 

GDPR

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They're not considered real jews.
The majority of Orthodox Rabbis before World War II were incredibly Anti-Zionist for various reasons. Of course there were some like Rabbi Kook who weren't. Than there is the fact that in the early years of the Zionist colonial project State it was often intensely Anti-Judaism which it saw as "anti-Progress".
 

Clanrickard

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Windowshopper

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One cannot separate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can separate Judaism from Zionism.

As a secularist one of the reasons why I am leery of Zionism is that it privileges one religion over others, and that's why I find the idea of a Jewish State as opposed to an Israeli state hard to swallow: one cannot become a Muslim Jew but one might become an Israeli Muslim. Quite a lot of nations have a common ethnicity or religious history but I think nowadays it is better to base 'nationness' on common citizenship.

While I understand why a Jewish state and a law of return came about against the background of deep anti-Antisemitism and then the Holocaust, I don't think that a state should privilege one grouping inter alia another as Israel does by saying a Jew whose direct ancestors have not been there for a millennia have more right than the grandson of a Palestinian refugee.

Also, as a secularist I think defining citizenship under an ethno-religious identity is dangerous as it gives a big stick to the more strongly religious and priests to force their views on everyone else by claiming to be most authentic realizations of the nation. This played a role in the bishop's hold here as they tried to define Irishness as synonymous with Catholicism. I fear something like this is happening in Israel with the eclipse of the the laudable labour tradition by a coalition in which religious conservatives are a central pillar.
 
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former wesleyan

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[video=youtube;nFsljT1362s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s[/video]


Greet the banks of the Jordan
and Zion's toppled towers...
Oh, my country, so beautiful and lost!
Oh, remembrance, so dear and so fatal!
 

wombat

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The OP is wrong. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is political. Some Jews are not Zionists. You can also be non-Jewish and a Zionist.
That's a fair comment but I have a question for non Zionist Jews - how safe would you feel from anti Jewish persecution if you did not know that the Zionists will protect you?
 

Wascurito

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One cannot seperate Zionism from Judaism, but I think one can seperate Judaism from Zionism.

As a secularist one of the reasons why I am leery of Zionism is that it privieges one religion over others, and that's one of the resons why I find the idea of a Jewish State as opposed to an Israeli state hard to swallow: one can not become an Muslim Jew but one might become an Israeli Muslim. Quite a lot of nations have a common etthnicity or religious history but I think now adays it is better to base 'nationness' on common citizenship.

While I understand of why Jewish state and a law of return came about aganist the background of deep antisemiticism and then the Holocaust. I cannot think that a state cannot privilege one grouping inter alia another as Israel does by saying a Jew who's direct ancestors have not been threre for a millenia have more right than the grandson of a Palestinian refugee.

Also as a secularist I think defining citizenship under an ethno religious identity is dangerous as it gives a big stick to the more strongly religous and priests to force their views on everyone else by claiming to be most authentic realizations of the nation. This played a role in the bishop's hold here as they tried to define Irishness as synomous with Catholicism. I fear something like this is happening in Israel with the ecilpse of the the laudable labour tradition with a coailition in which relgious conservatives are a central pillar.
I do worry that Israel is moving towards an inwardly-looking right-wing nationalism although, to be honest, any country subjected to such threats and abuse would probably do likewise. As things stand, it's still far more tolerant of minority religions than any other country in the region.

If only Western leftists would concern themselves as much with the real hardline theocracies (all Islamic) in that region rather than continually bashing Israel.

Re the bit in bold, most Israeli Jews are descended from Mizrachim; i.e. descended from those who had to flee other Middle Eastern countries.
 
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roc_

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Judaism is a religion, Zionism is a political movement, two separate entities, not all Jews are Zionist and indeed not all Zionist are Jews.
Indeed. But what are the approximate figures?

If we assume that tomorrow's antisemitism will indeed be based on the argument that any Jew who supports an evil, illegitimate, child-murdering state, may be legitimately despised, how many Jews precisely would escape the net of such a judgement?

Not that many I suggest - https://www.commentarymagazine.com/culture-civilization/religion/judaism/why-anti-zionist-jews-are-a-minority/


Good case in point. Those black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.

For all their online ubiquity, they are in fact only a a miniscule group on the farthest fringes of Judaism.

No doubt they are extremely popular in certain circles due to their advocating the “dismantling” of the State of Israel (well until their messiah comes), and due to their long record of extremist statements and support for anti-Semites and Islamic extremists.

But they are very far from representative.
 

Wascurito

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Good case in point. Those black-garbed Jews who appear in support of anti-Israel and even anti-Semitic events are known as “Neturei Karta.

For all their online ubiquity, they are in fact only a a miniscule group on the farthest fringes of Judaism.

No doubt they are extremely popular in certain circles due to their advocating the “dismantling” of the State of Israel (well until their messiah comes), and due to their long record of extremist statements and support for anti-Semites and Islamic extremists.

But they are very far from representative.
They are happy to live in Israel and take advantage of the freedoms and quality of life in Israel, freedoms and qualities that no other country in the region comes close to offering. And they're tolerated and allowed to propagate their beliefs.

I wonder how would a similar group in the USA, so loudly opposed to the existence of the USA, would fare?
 

Dame_Enda

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Not true. Before the Holocaust probably a majority of American Jews were anti Zionist.
 


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