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Judge tells schoolboy: choose the parent who goes to jail


Joined
Oct 8, 2011
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40,632
According to today's Indo:

Judge tells schoolboy: choose the parent who goes to jail - Independent.ie

This seems wrong on so many levels. The child is being asked to seriously damage his relationship with one or other parent and will have to live with that.

Now I"m not unaware that this may be a nuanced decision by the judge; he may be doing this as a way of bringing home to the child that his own actions are having a direct consequence to the parents, but it also looks like the judge is derelict in his duty. It's also more than likely that the headline is designed to cast his comments in the most inflammatory way

I doubt anyone will do time on this; the judge seems to have left a door open on that option, but it cuts to the core of an issue for me: should parents pay for the sins of their children? On the face of it it seems meet and just that parents pay if their lack of parental control results in damage and cost to others, yet I don't like the change in the parent/child dynamic that could result. An utterly delinquent child could effectively control his or her parents by threatening criminal acts.
 


Paddyc

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Des,

This was the last straw, if you read the article the school tried engaging with the parents for ages but they are unwilling or unable to do their duty as parents.

It will bring it home to the child, just exactly how serious this is. Personally, I'd jail the father for having to have a bench warrant issued against him, but that's just me.
 

Aindriu

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eoghanacht

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A bit much to make the 'child' choose. The article states that both the child and the father have failed to follow court instructions, the father failed to turn up and the child disobeyed a court instruction.

I think the father should be sent to prison.

Sadly I know of a lot of families like this.
 

ANONG

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Feb 24, 2012
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419
According to today's Indo:

Judge tells schoolboy: choose the parent who goes to jail - Independent.ie

This seems wrong on so many levels. The child is being asked to seriously damage his relationship with one or other parent and will have to live with that.

Now I"m not unaware that this may be a nuanced decision by the judge; he may be doing this as a way of bringing home to the child that his own actions are having a direct consequence to the parents, but it also looks like the judge is derelict in his duty. It's also more than likely that the headline is designed to cast his comments in the most inflammatory way

I doubt anyone will do time on this; the judge seems to have left a door open on that option, but it cuts to the core of an issue for me: should parents pay for the sins of their children? On the face of it it seems meet and just that parents pay if their lack of parental control results in damage and cost to others, yet I don't like the change in the parent/child dynamic that could result. An utterly delinquent child could effectively control his or her parents by threatening criminal acts.
I do not know the full details of the case but the parents are responsible for the actions of the child so they must suffer the consequences. Obviously he has no regard for either of his parents at the moment so the judge is not damaging the relationship between this child and his parents just making the consequences of his and their actions plain for all to see.
 
S

simeongrimes

He won't have to pick a parent if he just turns up at school so the real choice is go to school or send one of your parents to jail. Might backfire of course. "Don't tell me to turn off my Play Station or I'll see you behind bars!"
 

sondagefaux

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If the boy doesn't want to go to school at all, and from the report it seems he doesn't, the parents should exercise their constitutional right to educate him themselves or provide for his education outside of school.

The report states that he'll be eligible to go on a course to train as a mechanic when he turns 16.

If the parents can look after his education outside of school until then, there should be no problem.

I think the judge's remarks were inappropriate, even if meant to shock the boy into realising the seriousness of his failure to attend school.
 

TiredOfBeingTired

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I expected the link to bring me to some article on a Texas or Alabama.
But no, it's Ireland.
We cant blame the Americans for everything.
However, I wouldnt be surprised if this story lands on several American websites.

Sentencing is not rocket science.
There are precedents.
There are guidelines.
Did judge Mitchell not wonder for two minutes why he probably never heard for this idea of letting the child choose who goes to jail? He never heard about this idea because it is a load of nonsense. It is nonsense like this that brings the courts into disrepute.
 
D

Dylan2010

so if he is forced to go to school, is he under an obligation to learn anything or take exams? I am sure there are hundreds if not more kids who are completely disengaged from the education system. Sitting in a square building being bored is not an eductaion, even if it ticks some boxes for the dept.
 

'orebel

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so if he is forced to go to school, is he under an obligation to learn anything or take exams? I am sure there are hundreds if not more kids who are completely disengaged from the education system. Sitting in a square building being bored is not an eductaion, even if it ticks some boxes for the dept.
I was that soldier.
 
Joined
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so if he is forced to go to school, is he under an obligation to learn anything or take exams? I am sure there are hundreds if not more kids who are completely disengaged from the education system. Sitting in a square building being bored is not an eductaion, even if it ticks some boxes for the dept.
This goes to something my wife said when I told her of this story.

In France there is a very distinct differentiation between the concept of education and that of teaching. Parents educate and teachers teach. The two responsibilities are strictly demarcated.
 
Joined
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Des,

This was the last straw, if you read the article the school tried engaging with the parents for ages but they are unwilling or unable to do their duty as parents.

It will bring it home to the child, just exactly how serious this is. Personally, I'd jail the father for having to have a bench warrant issued against him, but that's just me.
Aye, I read it through and it is quite clear that this whole episode has gone through all of the relevant procedures. It's just the instruction to the child that doesn't sit right with me.

I've allowed in my OP that this could be a nuanced judgement, Solomon-like in its wisdom.
 

sondagefaux

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This goes to something my wife said when I told her of this story.

In France there is a very distinct differentiation between the concept of education and that of teaching. Parents educate and teachers teach. The two responsibilities are strictly demarcated.
Under the Irish constitution, parents are responsible for the education of their children.

They can choose to have their children taught in a school, as the vast majority of parents do, or to educate the children themselves or have them taught outside of a formal school environment.

However, it seems the parents in this case are not making any efforts to educate their child either themselves or outside of a formal school environment.

As their son has clearly indicated he does not want to go to school, it is up to the parents to arrange suitable education for him.
 
D

Dylan2010

This goes to something my wife said when I told her of this story.

In France there is a very distinct differentiation between the concept of education and that of teaching. Parents educate and teachers teach. The two responsibilities are strictly demarcated.
there are many parents here who put more effort into monitoring their kids soccer or GAA skills impovement over how they are doing in school because apparently thats da guberment's job
 

Roisin3

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He's 15 not 5. If he refuses to go to the school there's not much his parents can do. If his father was to drag him there every day, he'd be getting it in the ear for child abuse.

Once upon a time kids could leave school at 14. It's worth considering again. There's little point in teenagers who have completely disengaged from school being forced to sit in one all day.
 

sondagefaux

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there are many parents here who put more effort into monitoring their kids soccer or GAA skills impovement over how they are doing in school because apparently thats da guberment's job
If parents send their kids to school, the school's job is to teach the kids the curriculum to the best of the teachers' and kids' ability, with the help and support of the parents. Everything else is down to the parents, with the help and support of the school.
 
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
40,632
Under the Irish constitution, parents are responsible for the education of their children.

They can choose to have their children taught in a school, as the vast majority of parents do, or to educate the children themselves or have them taught outside of a formal school environment.

However, it seems the parents in this case are not making any efforts to educate their child either themselves or outside of a formal school environment.

As their son has clearly indicated he does not want to go to school, it is up to the parents to arrange suitable education for him.
Yes, but how many people are aware of Article 42 and its contents? The article doesn't distinguish between education and teaching, which was my point. In fact it conflates the two when it says:
Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.
 

'orebel

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there are many parents here who put more effort into monitoring their kids soccer or GAA skills impovement over how they are doing in school because apparently thats da guberment's job
There are other parents who do everything possible to to educate their kids. If the kid doesn't want to be there he doesn't want to be there and there must be some alternative available.
My parents were in this situation.
I think Sondagefaux's suggestion is probably best for this kid.
 

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