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Kelly death due to "Self inflicted injury"


Sync

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The new government have ordered that the MOJ release details on the death of Dr Kelly, a critic of the Iraq war, in the public interest. These inlcude the post mortem summary and the toxicology report. They can be found up on:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/pathologist-report-dpa.pdf

http://www.justice.gov.uk/toxicologist-report-dpa.pdf

Summary is basically that although there was enough Paracetomol and Dexy to possibly cause issues, he slit his wrist before it became a contributing factor.

BBC News - Kelly death due to 'self-inflicted injury'
 

Clanrickard

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The new government have ordered that the MOJ release details on the death of Dr Kelly, a critic of the Iraq war, in the public interest. These inlcude the post mortem summary and the toxicology report. They can be found up on:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/pathologist-report-dpa.pdf

http://www.justice.gov.uk/toxicologist-report-dpa.pdf

Summary is basically that although there was enough Paracetomol and Dexy to possibly cause issues, he slit his wrist before it became a contributing factor.

BBC News - Kelly death due to 'self-inflicted injury'
That has burst a lot of balloons for some conspiracy nuts.
 

Green eyed monster

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This is just the releasing of a report of an initial coroner's investigation that has always been contested, including by senior doctors and nothing new.

Dr David Kelly: Six top doctors demand inquest into death of weapons expert to prove he was murdered | Mail Online

The report states that the wound to his wrist was responsible for his loss of life.

We have concentrated on the finding on the death certificate that the primary cause of death was a haemorrage. We are spelling out why he could not have died from a cut to the small ulnar artery.'

One of the doctors, who preferred not to be named, added: 'When the Romans committed suicide they would slit all four arteries in a warm bath, which keeps the blood flowing. The arteries would close up in the open air and you would not lose that much blood.'
I notice on the BBC link the OP gives that the title omits the crucial 'says report' at the end, ie the finding of the report is no secret anyway and critics have always questioned the original finding and the Hutton inquiry itself (eg he called no witnesses).

The report itself suggests that the fact that his watch was removed suggests self-harm (discounting the possibility that someone who slashed his wrist might have done so for the same reason - ie to make it easier to cut).

The knife had no fingerprints on it (it should have had his).

Paramedics said insufficient blood was at the scene for exsanguination to be cause of death.

Given the controversy generated the decision to not reopen the investigation at the time was odd, the man who appointed the coroner was a Blair friend who later said a law that prevented a forced re-opening was a "useful little law".

And there are more questions.

I guess the key issue is that it is too late now to re-examine his body after a number of years have elapsed so even if such a request was granted....
 

TommyO'Brien

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Dr Kelly DID commit suicide, concludes post mortem

Yet another conspiracy theory has turned out to be total bunkum with the publication by Britain's Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary of the post mortem of Iraq weapons expert Dr David Kelly, whose body was found in 2003.

Conspiracy theorists have long argued that Kelly was killed and his body placed in the place where it was found.

The post mortem in fact shows beyond reasonable doubt that


  • Kelly did commit suicide - the wounds and the blood around the body matches exactly what could have been expected to be found had he committed suicide, and does not match what would be shown had he been killed by someone. The “orientation and arrangement” of the wounds “are typical of self-inflicted injury”, Dr Hunt wrote, while there was a “total lack of classical defence wounds against a sharp weapon attack” and no “pathological evidence that this man had been subjected to a sustained, violent assault”.
  • The way the body was found and the blood trail shows that Kelly died at that spot. The body had not been planted there.
  • He had also taken an overdose of painkilling tablets to deaden the pain but had vomited up some of them.
So yet another wild conspiracy theory has bitten the dust. :rolleyes:

Arms expert in Iraq row took his own life - report - The Irish Times - Sat, Oct 23, 2010
 

TonyBird

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So yet another wild conspiracy theory has bitten the dust. :rolleyes:
Hardly :rolleyes:
Why has this only come to light now ? Why has such 'harmless' evidence been hidden untill now ? What next ? Secret files released to 'prove' Brazilian fella was a RIRA nutter ?

Cos that would be just so convenient .
 

Limerick Lad

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Hardly :rolleyes:
Why has this only come to light now ? Why has such 'harmless' evidence been hidden untill now ? What next ? Secret files released to 'prove' Brazilian fella was a RIRA nutter ?

Cos that would be just so convenient .
It wasn't hidden until now, it was available to all interested parties at the Hutton Inquiry but Hutton ruled that the exact details from the postmortem results on how Kelly committed suicide including the fact that he not only slit his wrists but had also taken an overdose of painkillers should not be released for publication for seventy years in consideration to Kelly's wife and daughters.
 

yellowfish

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It wasn't hidden until now, it was available to all interested parties at the Hutton Inquiry but Hutton ruled that the exact details from the postmortem results on how Kelly committed suicide including the fact that he not only slit his wrists but had also taken an overdose of painkillers should not be released for publication for seventy years in consideration to Kelly's wife and daughters.
A lot has been made of the fact that the 70 year rule was applied, the conspiracy advocates were using it as a weapon in itself. I would hope that given it was the family's wish but that the facts are out anyway, people would now consider the manner of his death as dealt with and move on.

The reasons behind this poor mans suicide as far as they involve his work are probably within bounds, though I would say that the personal would have had as much baring as the professional, and we have no right to that information.
 

TonyBird

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It wasn't hidden until now, it was available to all interested parties at the Hutton Inquiry but Hutton ruled that the exact details from the postmortem results on how Kelly committed suicide including the fact that he not only slit his wrists but had also taken an overdose of painkillers should not be released for publication for seventy years in consideration to Kelly's wife and daughters.

Total horsecrap. Many families hear terrible things about their loved ones on a daily basis ,ie when and how they die. . Are you telling me its the governments job to 'protect' people from the harsh facts of life ?
 
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Green eyed monster

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The release of this report is simply a way of suggesting (for media purposes) that new evidence has come forward or some new conclusion has been reached, that is how the media are spinning it when there is nothing new here to contradict or address the concerns of people who question the verdict.

Particularly the question about whether the wounds could have caused his death... Even assuming they did the question of whether or not he inflicted them has never been proven (eg no fingerprints on knife).

The history of corruption of forensics people in Britain has precedent, most notoriously with the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6.

The circumstantial elements surrounding his death are extremely controversial and render inexcusable the decision to not hold an inquest into his death, he was alleged to have killed himself a day after he testified to a Commons inquiry into the dodgy dossier. There was a sense from the Blairite officials that we are going to play this one as if the mere suggestion his dangerous work could have caused anyone in authority to want to kill him is ridiculous (amazing given the history of security force malpractices in Britain).

The group of doctors have not been diverted from their calls for an inquiry by the release of this report...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322992/Dr-David-Kelly-verdict-fails-stop-doctors-demanding-inquest.html

But Dr Michael Powers QC, one of several experts calling for an inquest, described the decision to release the medical records as like ‘some sort of sticking plaster’.
Fellow ******campaigner Dr Christopher Burns-Cox said: ‘This suicide has not been proved beyond any doubt.’ ...........

His body was found in woods near his Oxfordshire home shortly after he was identified as the source of a BBC story that Tony Blair’s government had ‘sexed up’ its ******dossier on Iraq’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction.
.............

But Dr Powers, who is campaigning to overturn Lord Hutton’s ******findings, said there was nothing new in the documents and there was still conflict over how much blood was at the scene.
He said Dr Kelly could also have taken ‘far less than 29 tablets’ and, if he had taken only six or eight ‘one might draw completely different conclusions’.
‘It is extraordinary that it has taken somewhere in the region of nine months for the Ministry of Justice to decide which information should be made public,’ he said.
‘This is some sort of sticking plaster to address the inadequacy of the Hutton Inquiry.
‘These matters need to be dealt with at a coroner’s court.
At the very least we need an explanation as to why no inquest was held at the time.

In addition, a close friend, Dr Mai Pedersen, says an injury to his right hand had left the weapons inspector unable even to cut meat with it, calling into question whether he could have cut his wrist in the way described by the Hutton Report.

Under the heading ‘signs of sharp force injury’, Dr Hunt recorded a series of incised wounds across the front of the left wrist extending 8cm from side to side and 5cm from top to bottom.
The largest wound was 6cm long and between 1cm and 1.5cm deep and had completely severed the ulnar artery and partially severed the ulnar nerve. Two deep wounds around 2cm long were at the crease of the wrist.
TommyO'Brien said:
So yet another wild conspiracy theory has bitten the dust.
That's what you would have said back in the 70s when the Guildford 4 were convicted too no doubt, using your own mind to analyse instead of falling back on media positions is wise in a situation like this.
 
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Thac0man

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Yet another conspiracy theory has turned out to be total bunkum with the publication by Britain's Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary of the post mortem of Iraq weapons expert Dr David Kelly, whose body was found in 2003.

Conspiracy theorists have long argued that Kelly was killed and his body placed in the place where it was found.
One bubble has been burst, yes. But what will be exposed is that amongst the mixed nut conspiracy club, there are those who will never accept fact over delusion. But that anti-political delusion conspiracy nuts have one less borbel to festoon P.ie with is welcome.
 

The OD

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I don't think having an ingrained scepticism of the powers that be means one is a 'conspiracy nut'. I have an open mind as to what happened to him, however, seeing as I wasn't there, I guess I would have to accept the findings. Still think the whole things reeks a bit though.
 

Green eyed monster

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They fear an inquiry.

Only one person or one group of people worked on the body.

The timing of the 'suicide' and the high importance of political events surrounding the doctor.

Specific allegations on the events in the report.

Lord Denning (the most celebrated judge in British history of the 20thC)....

"We shouldn't have all these campaigns to get the Birmingham Six released if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied.......Just consider the course of events if their action were to proceed to trial ... If the six men failed it would mean that much time and money and worry would have been expended by many people to no good purpose. If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further"

The above shows a concern with limiting damage to a political system or authority and that it is ok to steamroll over individuals in order to ensure such institutions are protected - this shows the attitude which senior British officials have to power and authority when that authority is pitted against the rights of individuals... Which one must be sacrificed, and which protected.

I think it could have been a suicide but i also think we would never be told 'it was murder' no matter even if it was, due to the primary concern with protecting the appearance of propriety and a culture of mutual favors and assistance at the top of British institutions. Taking Denning's statement, Dr Kelly is in the ground and the 'forgetting' part is therefore easier.
 
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sgtharper

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One would almost think that the only people in the world who don't find his death suspicious are his family. I wonder why, what do they know that the conspiracy theorists don't?
 

Limerick Lad

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Total horsecrap. Many families hear terrible things about their loved ones on a daily basis ,ie when and how they die. . Are you telling me its the governments job to 'protect' people from the harsh facts of life ?
It wasn't to spare his family the knowledge of how he died that Hutton decided to apply the seventy year rule, they have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives but so that the intimate details of how he ended his life wouldn't be constantly regurgitated in the press while his daughters who were then in their early twenties still lived.

One would almost think that the only people in the world who don't find his death suspicious are his family. I wonder why, what do they know that the conspiracy theorists don't?
The fact that his family don't appear to have given much credence to the conspiracy theorists tells a lot.
 

niropiro

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I suppose we are going to hear never ending claims of a second wrist cutter on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence?
 

Green eyed monster

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I suppose we are going to hear never ending claims of a second wrist cutter on the grassy knoll behind the picket fence?
I know, it's as daft as a theory that Saddam didn't have WMD isn't it?

The fact that his family don't appear to have given much credence to the conspiracy theorists tells a lot.
What statements have the familly made on the issue? How do we know they don't find it suspicious?
 
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