Labour can kill off Coke and Pepsi politics

A

AMCW177

Barring a remarkable change of mindset among the electorate - unlikely, unless the economic crisis translates into a social/political crisis of unmanageable proportions - I see no way for Labour to resolve their dilemma. I think they are obliged to embrace it and settle for being occasional power-brokers within a political system that is profoundly resistant to radical change.
They could, for example, commit to refusing to vote for any FF Government for 10 years.

We would almost certainly end up with a minority FG administration, but one which had a certain confidence that Labour would not help FF back into power. Labour would be in a position of extraordinary leverage over the minority administration and be able to get some of their policies implemented purely by influence without formally joining coalition. While being free to tussle with the FF rump for the clear leadership of the Opposition. FF frozen out of power for a guaranteed decade minimum would have no point in existing.

Hey presto, clear left/right divide and the end of Civil War politics inside a decade. Result all round.
 


Mr.De-Regulation

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I say an all FG 166 seat Dail, then have your left/right divide. FG themselves have many of a divide. Left leaning conservatives(Enda), moderate centrists(Richard), neo-libs(Leo), conservative right(Lucinda) and some left/liberals(Hayes).

Anyone more to the left than FG, would be classified as extremists in most western countries.
 

Stíofán

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I say an all FG 166 seat Dail, then have your left/right divide. FG themselves have many of a divide. Left leaning conservatives(Enda), moderate centrists(Richard), neo-libs(Leo), conservative right(Lucinda) and some left/liberals(Hayes).

Anyone more to the left than FG, would be classified as extremists in most western countries.
Hah ha.

But I'd like to see bigger parties. PR lends itself to the creation of smaller parties but a fractured political set-up lends itself to the dominance of FF and, at least the potential, for a one party (+1/2 coalition partner) state. It is the reason for Fianna Fáils near dominance in power, and Silvio Berlesconis success in Italy.
 

asset test

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For my own part, if Labour do not absolutely commit to NOT forming a coalition with FF after the next election, they will never get a vote from me. And from many others either who desperately want the political landscape to change and to change utterly.
 

evercloserunion

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It's not who Labour will go into government with, it's who'll go into Government with Labour.
No it's not. Do you honestly think either FF or FG would refuse on principle to ally with Labour if it meant a grab at power?
 

Bobert

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No it's not. Do you honestly think either FF or FG would refuse on principle to ally with Labour if it meant a grab at power?
Show me how, in accordance with any opinion poll you like, either Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil can form a government without Labour Party Support.

Neither one can which puts Labour in the best position.
 

Rocky

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Show me how, in accordance with any opinion poll you like, either Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil can form a government without Labour Party Support.

Neither one can which puts Labour in the best position.
Currently FF can't form one with Labour support.
 

Bobert

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Nor can Fine Gael.
 

edwin

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It has long ago. Or do you believe that the US hasn't moved beyond their civil war politics because the Republicans and the Democrats are the two dominant parties there?

Incidently, aside from the Greens, FG are the only party in Dail Eireann that was founded after the civil war.
Are you being serious? FF was founded in 1926. Provisional SF was founded in 1972 (give or take a year). Also, remember the merger of DL and Labour into a new party in 1997? It might be called Labour but all were told it was brand new. That leaves FF as the oldest party in the Dáil with FG narrowly behind and all formed after the Civil War.
 

Supermanpolitician

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Fintant should make these points, put himself up for election, and see how far he gets. He would get less than the Labour average because hee is unlikeable, not because he is smart.
 

Andrew49

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It's not who Labour will go into government with, it's who'll go into Government with Labour.
No it's not. Do you honestly think either FF or FG would refuse on principle to ally with Labour if it meant a grab at power?
Labour Party leader Eamon Gilmore [] today it was the “correct decision” to vote against the Government’s plan to guarantee all deposits in Irish banks. Speaking after the Dáil approved the Bill giving effect to the move, October 2 2008
MINISTER FOR Finance Brian Lenihan "failed the test" to provide "appropriate protection for the taxpayer", Labour finance spokeswoman Joan Burton claimed as her party opposed emergency legislation to underwrite financial institutions. ..... she said the "law of unintended consequences" had come into play, with the possible inclusion of more banks in the scheme, less than 48 hours after the original announcement. But Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton welcomed the extension to "significant players who are important to the competitive environment that exists in the banking sector". October 3 2008
Taoiseach Brian Cowen has rejected as “innuendo” suggestions that the Government was aware that Irish Life & Permanent had deposited up to €7 billion in Anglo Irish Bank last September, when the bank guarantee scheme was introduced. .... .... Mr Gilmore said his party “stood alone” on September 30th and opposed the Government’s blanket guarantee for banks. “We did so because we felt that were not being told the full story and that the taxpayer was not being told what we were getting into,” he said. ““It now turns out that we didn’t know the half of it.”
February 11 2009
I think the Labour Party has ruled itself out of any Government containing Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. Gilmore and Burton have been very impressive throughout this, though Joan has a tendency to crunch too many numbers at times, and I'm sure they'll receive some extra votes but as for them becoming a 'party of government' I doubt it very much. They don't owe anything to the two main parties and I always saw their entry into coalitions as very cynical.

We've had enough of cynical politics ... I think.
 

Bobert

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But Labour alone can't make the numbers. Not even with the Greens and/or independents. They need either FF or FG.
 

evercloserunion

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Show me how, in accordance with any opinion poll you like, either Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil can form a government without Labour Party Support.

Neither one can which puts Labour in the best position.
Eh I might have misunderstood you so. I thought you were saying that Labour's chances of getting into power depend on one party or the other deciding to go into power with them, which was somehow unlikely.
 

cyberianpan

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But Labour alone can't make the numbers. Not even with the Greens and/or independents. They need either FF or FG.
They do now - but as I pointed out above FG being able to form a rainbow government without FF or Labour is a possibility

And It would be to Labour's advantage being on the opposition benches with FF ... as taking the analogy:

FG would be Pepsi
FF would be Coke
Lab would be Red Bull

And thus Labour would have a more differentiated platform to attack FG on.

cYp
 

123

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The fact of the matter is that paddy power offer 66/1 on Labour having a majority government in 2009. In its current form the party can never hope to achieve this. They need to radically change.

They need to bring in youth. There are far too many grey hairs in their party. They need to inject some enthusiasm into the party. A younger front bench is required to do this. They potencially could pick up much ot the green parties support as well as most of Fianna Fail's support. An opportunity of a generation as presented itself, peolple are willing to change their party allegiance in search of a solution to the current problems.
This can not be ignored the labour party must act if it is ever going to become a force in irish politics.

It needs to become a party of change. It needs to provide an alternative polticial system. The country needs real reform and the labour party are possibly the only party capable of delivering it. They need to get off the fence, if they start producing real workable alternative policies on a regular basis they will quickly earn the respect of the people. Eamon Gilmore is presiding over a party at a cross roads. They can change and become the savior of the country from civil war politics or they can stay the same and watch themselves slowly die out of existance.
 

keitis

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I think it's vital the two party system comes to an end. FG will criticise FF policies and then follow the same policies. Like their '10-point plan for economic recovery', their solution is more privatisation. It's these free market FF/PD policies which drove us into this mess in the first place.

Labour could be faced with a choice after the next general election- continue to play second fiddle to FF/FG, or refuse government with either and let them go in together. The only way to change politics in this country is to let FF/FG go in together, after all i cant even think of any other combination of parties which are that compatible, each of their respective policies are carbon copies of each other!

Of course the pessimist in me thinks Labour wont be interested in doing this. They have always being more than happy in the past to only serve the interests of FF/FG.
 

Frankie Lee

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The fact of the matter is that paddy power offer 66/1 on Labour having a majority government in 2009. In its current form the party can never hope to achieve this. They need to radically change.

They need to bring in youth. There are far too many grey hairs in their party. They need to inject some enthusiasm into the party. A younger front bench is required to do this. They potencially could pick up much ot the green parties support as well as most of Fianna Fail's support. An opportunity of a generation as presented itself, peolple are willing to change their party allegiance in search of a solution to the current problems.
This can not be ignored the labour party must act if it is ever going to become a force in irish politics.

It needs to become a party of change. It needs to provide an alternative polticial system. The country needs real reform and the labour party are possibly the only party capable of delivering it. They need to get off the fence, if they start producing real workable alternative policies on a regular basis they will quickly earn the respect of the people. Eamon Gilmore is presiding over a party at a cross roads. They can change and become the savior of the country from civil war politics or they can stay the same and watch themselves slowly die out of existance.
I'd agree with most of this, there is no difference between FG and FF. The same financial support that funded FF supports FG, neither party is honest in my opinion.

The mass privatisation of the health service (universal healthcare) will benefit the same individuals which are benefiting from co-location and primary care centres. The situation of the health service in Holland is not as good as the media makes out either.

In order for Labour to become a player, I believe they will seriously need to become radical in their policy(which is poor enough atm) and inject youth into their front bench. Whether they are capable of this or not is another matter.
 


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