Labour Court decisions must not be a fig leaf for government on pay awards

patslatt

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On Newstalk Radio, it was reported that the ministers of the government were surprised by the generosity of the Labour Court decision on garda pay and benefits and consequently believe that the extra unanticipated costs should be funded from the existing Justice Department budget, not from budgetary top ups. Naturally, the Minister of Justice argues for extra money to save projects slashed to make the payroll, the typical Irish public sector story. Despite the LC decision, the government argues that it doesn't breach the Lansdowne Road agreement on public sector pay, a bit of a stretch.

There is a danger that the LC might seriously breach Lansdowne Road with a nod and a wink from the government in the event of a politically awkward strike by teachers or nurses, providing the government with a political fig leaf for a cave in. That would open the floodgates to totally unjustified public sector pay demands. The Irish public sector is already near the top of the best paid in the EU despite austerity pay cuts which were made from crazy Benchmarking levels.

It is vitally important to remember that the elected Irish government has ultimate responsibility for budgets and pay, not the Labour Court which is a mediator. So the government should be prepared to reject any Labour Court decision that appears to breach Lansdowne Road.
 
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ger12

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Totally unjustified? Come on now ...
 

SeanieFitz

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On Newstalk Radio, it was reported that the ministers of the government were surprised by the generosity of the Labour Court decision on gardai pay and benefits and consequently believe that the extra unanticipated costs should be funded from the existing Justice Department budget, not from budgetary top ups. Naturally, the Minister of Justice argues for extra money to save projects slashed to make the payroll, the typical Irish public sector story. Despite the LC decision, the government argues that it doesn't breach the Lansdowne Road agreement on public sector pay, a bit of a stretch.

There is a danger that the LC might seriously breach Lansdowne Road with a nod and a wink from the government in the event of a politically awkward strike by teachers or nurses, providing the government with a political fig leaf for a cave in. That would open the floodgates to totally unjustified public sector pay demands. The Irish public sector is already near the top of the best paid in the EU despite austerity pay cuts which were made from crazy Benchmarking levels.

It is vitally important to remember that the elected Irish government has ultimate responsibility for budgets and pay, not the Labour Court which is a mediator. So the government should be prepared to reject any Labour Court decision that appears to breach Lansdowne Road.
If workers refuse to accept Labour Court decisions they are widely vilified........and you think it should be ok for our government to do so....interesting. What would be the point of the Labour Court then

AT LEAST YOU HAVE STOPPED SHOUTING
 

wombat

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If workers refuse to accept Labour Court decisions they are widely vilified........and you think it should be ok for our government to do so....interesting. What would be the point of the Labour Court then
We can't have it both ways, if the govt asks the LC to issue a judgement, they have to accept it.
 

patslatt

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If workers refuse to accept Labour Court decisions they are widely vilified........and you think it should be ok for our government to do so....interesting. What would be the point of the Labour Court then

AT LEAST YOU HAVE STOPPED SHOUTING
The Labour Court isn't elected by the Irish electorate and so it can't have ultimate fiscal responsibility for the state, which is solely in the government's power.
 

SeanieFitz

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The Labour Court isn't elected by the Irish electorate and so it can't have ultimate fiscal responsibility for the state, which is solely in the government's power.
whatever you say Pat, no bother!
 

patslatt

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We can't have it both ways, if the govt asks the LC to issue a judgement, they have to accept it.
No, they don't. But the government would have to take the political risk of rejecting a LC decision.
 

wombat

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The Labour Court isn't elected by the Irish electorate and so it can't have ultimate fiscal responsibility for the state, which is solely in the government's power.
The Labour court does not set taxation or spending policies. It was set up to enable employers and unions to settle industrial disputes by referring the issue to an impartial adjudicator.
 

Dynamo

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On Newstalk Radio, it was reported that the ministers of the government were surprised by the generosity of the Labour Court decision on garda pay and benefits and consequently believe that the extra unanticipated costs should be funded from the existing Justice Department budget, not from budgetary top ups. Naturally, the Minister of Justice argues for extra money to save projects slashed to make the payroll, the typical Irish public sector story. Despite the LC decision, the government argues that it doesn't breach the Lansdowne Road agreement on public sector pay, a bit of a stretch.

There is a danger that the LC might seriously breach Lansdowne Road with a nod and a wink from the government in the event of a politically awkward strike by teachers or nurses, providing the government with a political fig leaf for a cave in. That would open the floodgates to totally unjustified public sector pay demands. The Irish public sector is already near the top of the best paid in the EU despite austerity pay cuts which were made from crazy Benchmarking levels.

It is vitally important to remember that the elected Irish government has ultimate responsibility for budgets and pay, not the Labour Court which is a mediator. So the government should be prepared to reject any Labour Court decision that appears to breach Lansdowne Road.
the Labour Court is NOT a mediator that is the WRC. The Labour court is an adjudicator that issues non binding recommendations to parties who request its services to resolve their problems.
The Labour court does not interpret or defend the PSA/LRA there is a separate body established under the agreement to do that (National Oversight Body).
It is extremely unlikely that the LC issued the recommendation without at least indicating its thinking to the parties. It is a matter of opinion whether the Labour Court rec breaches the PSA/LRA but fair to say nobody outside the cabinet believes it doesn't.

Rewarding a party that rejected the PSA/LRA with better terms then those given to the good boys/girls that accepted it is a strange way of doing business as I suspect the bigger unions will be telling Pascal this week.

negotiations on a 'new' PSA will commence before Christmas (accelerating the payments in PSA/LRA)
 

wombat

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Rewarding a party that rejected the PSA/LRA with better terms then those given to the good boys/girls that accepted it is a strange way of doing business as I suspect the bigger unions will be telling Pascal this week.
I suspect that the main unions are realistic enough to realise that a police strike is not the same as any other strike. The crunch will come when there is a settlement of the teachers' strike. My guess is that it could be a relatively long and very bitter strike.
 

Dynamo

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I suspect that the main unions are realistic enough to realise that a police strike is not the same as any other strike. The crunch will come when there is a settlement of the teachers' strike. My guess is that it could be a relatively long and very bitter strike.
Not sure that SIPTU, IMPACT (and especially) the INMO would agree with you. many unions 'sold' the LRA as the best deal possible and this has now been proven wrong. Any concession to ASTI not only a kick in the teeth for those PS unions that accepted LRA but also for other teaching unions that signed up, despite the historic 'sympathy' that exists among politicians for teachers (hardly surprising given many come from teaching backgrounds) it is difficult to se any serious concessions that can be made.
ASTI have again shown their total ignorance of industrial relations. the LRA is dead and will have to be replaced so this strike/work to rule is futile.
 

borntorum

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So Pat supports the LRA now. That's progress I suppose
 

Sister Mercedes

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The Labour court does not set taxation or spending policies. It was set up to enable employers and unions to settle industrial disputes by referring the issue to an impartial adjudicator.
Then it shouldn't be called a court. It should be called an arbitrator.
 

wombat

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wombat

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Not sure that SIPTU, IMPACT (and especially) the INMO would agree with you.
Most union reps are pretty realistic when negotiating with employers, not the same as when they're on talk shows. Part of the problem with the GRA is that they are not trained, experienced union negotiators, they painted themselves into a corner where any compromise leaves dissatisfied members. The more experienced unions tend to dampen expectations so that members can feel they have gained something.
 

ger12

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loner

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I suspect that the main unions are realistic enough to realise that a police strike is not the same as any other strike. The crunch will come when there is a settlement of the teachers' strike. My guess is that it could be a relatively long and very bitter strike.
NotiftheGovt,hasgutsandrejectsatleastsomeoftherecommendationsfromtheLabourCourt
 

Clanrickard

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patslatt

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The Labour court does not set taxation or spending policies. It was set up to enable employers and unions to settle industrial disputes by referring the issue to an impartial adjudicator.
Again, the elected government has ultimate responsibility for fiscal matters and can reject the unelected LC decisions at the political risk of looking tightfisted.
 

patslatt

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the Labour Court is NOT a mediator that is the WRC. The Labour court is an adjudicator that issues non binding recommendations to parties who request its services to resolve their problems.
The Labour court does not interpret or defend the PSA/LRA there is a separate body established under the agreement to do that (National Oversight Body).
It is extremely unlikely that the LC issued the recommendation without at least indicating its thinking to the parties. It is a matter of opinion whether the Labour Court rec breaches the PSA/LRA but fair to say nobody outside the cabinet believes it doesn't.

Rewarding a party that rejected the PSA/LRA with better terms then those given to the good boys/girls that accepted it is a strange way of doing business as I suspect the bigger unions will be telling Pascal this week.

negotiations on a 'new' PSA will commence before Christmas (accelerating the payments in PSA/LRA)
€50 MILLION EXTRA FOR GARDAI NOT A DISASTER

In the context of budgets in the billions, the extra €50 millions won by gardai doesn't set a labour relations precedent in breach of Lansdowne Road as greedy public sector unions claim, but it could be the thin edge of the wedge. Gardai are in the very unusual position as guarantors of state security and so the government can be forgiven for accepting a LC decision that stretches Lansdowne Road.No other group in society has power and responsibilty like the gardai's except the army, the last bastion of state security.
 


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