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Labour's "managed" revolt?


Big Brother

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
One theory I have is that Burton has agreed to a cut that she knows will drive TDs away from Labour; younger TDs who face grim career prospects if they stay in

But there is another theory I'll put out there:

Option 1: Implement cuts and stand by and watch as TD's break away in droves.

Option 2: Instead realise - after decades of hard bitten experience in Sinn Fein, Official Sinn Fein, WP, Democratic Left, the trade union movement and Labour - that splits can be orchestrated in order to defend your left flank against attack by SF and ULA. Instead of trying to oppose the breakaways, manage it by creating tacit understandings that TDs facing trouble over cuts can defect temporarily for optics before returning to the fold once the economy has recovered and all is forgotten.

Bertie managed independent FFers with great skill.

Gilmore is no less skillful. He knows that with a huge majority gov't can afford to lose a few TDs. Could he perhaps be letting key TDs temporarily defect? That way it blocks SF / ULA from gaining ground...

Stranger things have been known to happen.

I'm not saying this is what is happening.

I'm just putting it out there as a theory.
 

Levellers

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Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
14,108
Gilmore, Quinn, Rabbite are primarily interested in getting their pensions. They have no hope at the next election. They will hang in.
 

culmore

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Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
3,184
How can keaveney vote confidence in the government and then support most of the budget and then vote against it, he says he was hoping for a change of mind by the government, but he was told by both kenny and gilmore there would be no turning back, he looks rather foolish in my mind.
 

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,254
One theory I have is that Burton has agreed to a cut that she knows will drive TDs away from Labour; younger TDs who face grim career prospects if they stay in

But there is another theory I'll put out there:

Option 1: Implement cuts and stand by and watch as TD's break away in droves.

Option 2: Instead realise - after decades of hard bitten experience in Sinn Fein, Official Sinn Fein, WP, Democratic Left, the trade union movement and Labour - that splits can be orchestrated in order to defend your left flank against attack by SF and ULA. Instead of trying to oppose the breakaways, manage it by creating tacit understandings that TDs facing trouble over cuts can defect temporarily for optics before returning to the fold once the economy has recovered and all is forgotten.

Bertie managed independent FFers with great skill.

Gilmore is no less skillful. He knows that with a huge majority gov't can afford to lose a few TDs. Could he perhaps be letting key TDs temporarily defect? That way it blocks SF / ULA from gaining ground...

Stranger things have been known to happen.

I'm not saying this is what is happening.

I'm just putting it out there as a theory.
Well, this isn't happening and your theory is mad.
 

SeanieFitz

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Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
The level of anti Labour trolling on this site has now become ridiculous. I acknowledge that this is a political/current affairs site however the coordinated, organised posting of abusive threads in respect of Labour has become so repetitive, particularly since the Budget.
One of the usual FG/SF hacks starts a thread, general vitriol/half truths/untruths ensue until it filters out...............whereupon it is replaced by another with a similar theme.
It is obvious (to me anyway) that SF supporters and, in particular, FG supporters are trying to lay the blame for the budget firmly at the door of Labour.Labour and FG are responsible for the recent budget.
It has become a joke, the level of FG trolling on this site has not been as ridiculous since before the election when almost everyone on this site was wearing a shirt of a blue hue!
 

Big Brother

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Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Gilmore, Quinn, Rabbite are primarily interested in getting their pensions. They have no hope at the next election. They will hang in.
Maybe they will.

But giving the Worker's Party past of deception intrigue and subterfuge, managing a few fake defections is a piece of cake. They can create a buffer zone that at least maximises the chance of losing power.

Also they can exert control over anyone who geniunely defects by ensuring that their are loyalists already planted amongst their new "independent" labour friends.

We've just seen the world of double agents and deception at work in recent stories about Pat Finucane and those double agents who caught a British naval officer who tried to give secrets to the Russians.

Don't tell me those at the top of the Labour party aren't subtle or experienced enough to think of tactics like this and try them out.
 

SeanieFitz

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Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
Maybe they will.

But giving the Worker's Party past of deception intrigue and subterfuge, managing a few fake defections is a piece of cake. They can create a buffer zone that at least maximises the chance of losing power.

Also they can exert control over anyone who geniunely defects by ensuring that their are loyalists already planted amongst their new "independent" labour friends.

We've just seen the world of double agents and deception at work in recent stories about Pat Finucane and those double agents who caught a British naval officer who tried to give secrets to the Russians.

Don't tell me those at the top of the Labour party aren't subtle or experienced enough to think of tactics like this and try them out.
welcome to the site Jim Corr
 

Big Brother

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Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Is there a reason you felt you had to start a new thread on this?
Yes - I realise there is a thread on Colm Keaveney's defection and don't want to be discourteous to the Mods.

Its just that I think we need to discuss how much of what we think is spontaneous political activity could in fact be choreographed.

The idea that there is no choreography in politics strikes me as unrealistic.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But I do think it is possible that defections are sometimes co-ordinated or at least occur with some tacit understanding of the reasons why.

For instance in 1983 during the abortion referendum 8 FG TDs were allowed to vote against teh gov't to keep their seats. They were back in FG within 12 months.
 

R3volution_R3ady

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,370
The level of anti Labour trolling on this site has now become ridiculous. I acknowledge that this is a political/current affairs site however the coordinated, organised posting of abusive threads in respect of Labour has become so repetitive, particularly since the Budget.
One of the usual FG/SF hacks starts a thread, general vitriol/half truths/untruths ensue until it filters out...............whereupon it is replaced by another with a similar theme.
It is obvious (to me anyway) that SF supporters and, in particular, FG supporters are trying to lay the blame for the budget firmly at the door of Labour.Labour and FG are responsible for the recent budget.
It has become a joke, the level of FG trolling on this site has not been as ridiculous since before the election when almost everyone on this site was wearing a shirt of a blue hue!
Has it not occurred to you that the very people that voted for Labour precisely because of the promises they made, have now become disenfranchised with them after they said they lied during the election?

It doesn't have to be this big conspiracy for crying out loud....people are upset that the people they voted for have no intention of representing them. I think that is justified. It's nothing to do with trolling, Labour brought this on themselves and it's no secret that the electorate are noticing it....

 

Big Brother

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Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
welcome to the site Jim Corr
I don't begrudge the jibe and saw that one coming :)

But read "The Lost Revolution" about what the WP got up to in the past - all documented and accepted as fact and a hell of a lot stranger than what I'm proposing: Makes John Le Carre look like an author of children's cartoon books.
 

Big Brother

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Has it not occurred to you that the very people that voted for Labour precisely because of the promises they made, have now become disenfranchised with them after they said they lied during the election?

It doesn't have to be this big conspiracy for crying out loud....people are upset that the people they voted for have no intention of representing them. I think that is justified. It's nothing to do with trolling, Labour brought this on themselves and it's no secret that the electorate are noticing it....


There is no contradiction between what you are saying and what I am saying.

yes you are right that people are angry at broken promises.

What I am asking is whether the TDs expressing solidarity with them are being genuine.

Or whether they are blowing with the wind for teh time being in order to stave off advance by SF, intending to return to Labour when times are better.

After all, its not as if Labour TDs are incapable of deception now, is it?
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
The level of anti Labour trolling on this site has now become ridiculous. I acknowledge that this is a political/current affairs site however the coordinated, organised posting of abusive threads in respect of Labour has become so repetitive, particularly since the Budget.
One of the usual FG/SF hacks starts a thread, general vitriol/half truths/untruths ensue until it filters out...............whereupon it is replaced by another with a similar theme.
It is obvious (to me anyway) that SF supporters and, in particular, FG supporters are trying to lay the blame for the budget firmly at the door of Labour.Labour and FG are responsible for the recent budget.
It has become a joke, the level of FG trolling on this site has not been as ridiculous since before the election when almost everyone on this site was wearing a shirt of a blue hue!
Un-phucking-believable.

In fairness to the Greens and FFinished, I cannot recollect them whining like this everytime that they were found with their pants down.

Big Bro is asking genuine questions about a political party whose PR stunts make the Greens appear built on intergity.
 

Big Brother

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Unphuckingbbelievabel.

In fairness to the Greens and FFinished, I cannot recollect them whining like this everytime that they were found with their pants down.
Don't you know Labour supporters are superior human beings Analyzer, immune from the morality they inflict on the rest of us.

They have an inherent right for example to preach against religious education while sending their own kids to Michael's and Blackrock.

They have an inherent right to rail against private healthcare while Michael D uses private clinics for treatment

And they have an inherent right to preach against the evils of greed in the private sector while Eamonn Gilmore's good lady gets 500k for a piece of land while the pair of them earn 272,000 between them a year courtesy of the taxpayer.

Now stop questioning your masters and get back in harness and pay your taxes, slave! :)
 

SeanieFitz

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
Has it not occurred to you that the very people that voted for Labour precisely because of the promises they made, have now become disenfranchised with them after they said they lied during the election?

It doesn't have to be this big conspiracy for crying out loud....people are upset that the people they voted for have no intention of representing them. I think that is justified. It's nothing to do with trolling, Labour brought this on themselves and it's no secret that the electorate are noticing it....

ah please, show some intelligence. Just take a cursory look at the tone of the threads since the budget, look who starts them and tell me that it is not repetitive and agenda driven.

Newsflash everyone, we have a coalition government with Labour being the junior partner and FG being the senior partner. Do posters think that Labour are pulling the FG strings, does that not disrespect the intelligence and political nous of Big Phil, Beardy Reilly, Leo V, Simon Coveney etc
it is obvious that FG hacks on this site are trying to deflect all the blame on Labour.
 

SeanieFitz

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,225
Un-phucking-believable.

In fairness to the Greens and FFinished, I cannot recollect them whining like this everytime that they were found with their pants down.

Big Bro is asking genuine questions about a political party whose PR stunts make the Greens appear built on intergity.
look who it is Tonto himself with his blue shirt flapping in the wind, YAWN. FG have reneged on so many pre election promises that it is a joke. Guess what they all do it.

Don't see too many anti FG threads here.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
look who it is Tonto himself with his blue shirt flapping in the wind, YAWN. FG have reneged on so many pre election promises that it is a joke. Guess what they all do it.

Don't see too many anti FG threads here.
You're hilarious.

Are you always that well informed when you make knee jerk reactions to defend the Stickie led Looper Party franchise operation ?
 

gatsbygirl20

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
22,790
Has it not occurred to you that the very people that voted for Labour precisely because of the promises they made, have now become disenfranchised with them after they said they lied during the election?

It doesn't have to be this big conspiracy for crying out loud....people are upset that the people they voted for have no intention of representing them. I think that is justified. It's nothing to do with trolling, Labour brought this on themselves and it's no secret that the electorate are noticing it....
People are angry because of cuts, expecting better of Labour, true, but some people wanted Labour in office to curb the right-wing tendencies of FG

Without some pressure from Labour the cuts could have been much worse--core SW payments slashed, non-contributory old-age pension cut, etc.

Of course nobody is going to give Labour credit for what hasn't happened. They are naturally focused on the cuts which have occurred, and Labour will get little thanks for the battles it fought behind closed doors to hold the line on some cuts, or the horse-trading Labour had to engage in to stave off worse slashing and burning.....
 

Hewson

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,338
The level of anti Labour trolling on this site has now become ridiculous. I acknowledge that this is a political/current affairs site however the coordinated, organised posting of abusive threads in respect of Labour has become so repetitive, particularly since the Budget.
One of the usual FG/SF hacks starts a thread, general vitriol/half truths/untruths ensue until it filters out...............whereupon it is replaced by another with a similar theme.
It is obvious (to me anyway) that SF supporters and, in particular, FG supporters are trying to lay the blame for the budget firmly at the door of Labour.Labour and FG are responsible for the recent budget.
It has become a joke, the level of FG trolling on this site has not been as ridiculous since before the election when almost everyone on this site was wearing a shirt of a blue hue!
You may be right. I can only speak for myself and as far as I'm concerned Labour has been taken down a road that is completely at odds with its historical ethos: that of speaking for, and standing up for, the lower tiers of society. I lay most of the blame for that at the door of the ex-WP/DL elements within it and for the Labour rank and file for not seeing what was happening under their noses.

There are other Labour supporters on this site who want to see the party purged of the corrosive elements I mentioned above. If that doesn't happen, then Labour will suffer the consequences at the local, European and general elections.
 
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