Lagoon tidal power an energy solution?

silverharp

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so basically build a sea wall with generators, enclose a body of water and capture part of the energy of the tidal flows. Seems much better than wind as its predictable , possible other benefits as flood defense, creating an amenity. Not sure of the sums but allegedly in the realms of nuclear. Downside most of the cost is upfront being presumably very capital intensive, upside its a 100 year plus project.
Swansea seems like its close to a go ahead. viable for Ireland? there is a foreign aid budget gagging to be redirected into something useful so the cost doesnt have to be dropped onto the consumer.


Tidal lagoon: £1.3bn Swansea Bay project to be backed - BBC News


Plans for a £1.3bn tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay will be backed in a government-funded review on Thursday.
Charles Hendry will publish his independent report into the viability of the renewable energy technology later, recommending the UK builds the lagoon to capture energy from the sea.
There are hopes of developing a network of larger lagoons around the UK coast.
The UK government still needs to agree on a deal and a marine licence would also need to be approved.
Former UK energy minister Mr Hendry has been gathering evidence for nearly a year for his independent inquiry, including visits to all the potential sites and discussions with industry.
Speaking ahead of the report, Mr Hendry said: "If you look at the cost spread out over the entire lifetime - 120 years for the project - it comes out at about 30p per household for the next 30 years. That's less than a pint of milk.
"That's where I think we can start a new industry and we can do it at an affordable cost to consumers."
The Swansea Bay project would involve 16 turbines along a breakwater but is seen as only the start - a prototype for much larger lagoons.
The "fleet" include one off the coast of Cardiff - east of where Cardiff Bay is now - Newport, Bridgwater Bay in Somerset, Colwyn Bay and west Cumbria, north of Workington.


[video=youtube;1NF007w8qeg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NF007w8qeg[/video]
 


Mad as Fish

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With all dams and barrages the biggest problem is silting up and they need constant dredging to prevent it.
 

automaticforthepeople

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There's a problem with building a wall! It damages the intertidal zone in estuaries but there are not enough estuaries anyway that might even be suitable in Ireland or have a tidal range to make it economic.
 

fat finger

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With all dams and barrages the biggest problem is silting up and they need constant dredging to prevent it.
The other problem is how to deal with vulnerable fish who stray into the lagoon, how do you prevent them being minced up by the turbines as the water flows out. OK, we could probably attach some arrangement to filter out the fishmeal, drain and bag it for use in farmfeed, but some of the vulnerable fish might also be conserved species which causes all kinds of environmental headaches. You also need to take into account the number of hard shell leatherback turtles that swim offshore in Wales, brought over from Gulf of Mexico by the Gulf Stream, those shells are strong enough to resist impact of the blades and would bring the turbine to a grinding halt, possibly causing severe damage and delays, increasing the costs beyond economic operation.
 

farnaby

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This SEI report indicates that while raw tidal energy equates to 500% of our electrical consumption, the viable resource estimate is only 2% of electrical consumption.

However, most of this reduction is down to technical capabilities and the report is based on 2010 data and capabilities.

Would love to see something like this become viable.
 

Hans Von Horn

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The Capital cost per MW capacity of generating plant and the capacity factor (the average yearly output percentage based on maximum output) along with the lifespan of the infrastructure will drive the Levelized Cost of Energy derived.

The Marginal cost of Nordic Hydro is €0.02 cent per kWh. Subsidies in the UK for tidal energy are circa €0.38 per kWh. There is no prospect that Tidal Energy will become an economic solution.
 

silverharp

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The Capital cost per MW capacity of generating plant and the capacity factor (the average yearly output percentage based on maximum output) along with the lifespan of the infrastructure will drive the Levelized Cost of Energy derived.

The Marginal cost of Nordic Hydro is €0.02 cent per kWh. Subsidies in the UK for tidal energy are circa €0.38 per kWh. There is no prospect that Tidal Energy will become an economic solution.
whats the cost relative to Nuclear? clearly if its 2 or 3 times the cost of nuclear then its a non runner.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Of course tidal lagoons are "an energy solution". All you need is a good tidal range (which Ireland has) and the large investment, probably state-sponsored (err ...). And back-ups.

After that, one is looking for problems.

The biggest is NIMBYism, so it helps is there is a spin-off. Improved transport links are the obvious. Inevitably the "leisure market" (computer-aided simulations of yachts) would be invoked.

Cost? Well, the "original" (Usine marémotrice de la Rance) repaid all its investment, after two decades of operation — and is now rated as better "value" than nukes. That's even after ignoring the on-costs of cleaning up nukes.

Environment? Well, tough on the inter-tidal fauna and flora (sand-eels — your time is up). The operators can control silting to some extent, by managing the sluices. It's going to affect the type of fish-take, but there are substitutes. What you lose on plaice, you gain on sea-bass.

Availability? Ah, now there's the rub. The power comes on tap (geddit?) at certain points of the tidal cycle. I'm told "best performance" is about a quarter of the time, so you need several of these things at different places of the coast line to balance out. In the case of Ireland, north to south, that suggests about half the time the tidal power still might not be available.

Concept? Hardly original. The Romans apparently had a tidal mill on the River Fleet in Londinium. Neldrum on Strangford Lough has been credibly dated to the early seventh century. Little Island in Cork was operating a tide mill about the same time.
 

Trainwreck

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Another ridiculous project which will continue to push up the price of electricity in the UK.


This is what the developers of the project themselves said about it:

"the unit cost of power from the project can, at a manageably small scale, match that of Hinkley"
Sounds good, right?

Hinkley has some of the highest costs in the world.
 

silverharp

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Availability? Ah, now there's the rub. The power comes on tap (geddit?) at certain points of the tidal cycle. I'm told "best performance" is about a quarter of the time, so you need several of these things at different places of the coast line to balance out. In the case of Ireland, north to south, that suggests about half the time the tidal power still might not be available.
it certainly isn't anywhere as efficient as conventional Hydro but an improvement on wind which could actually go off line for days or more . if they are building the walls anyway could they include wind along the walls or in the lagoons themselves?
 

silverharp

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Another ridiculous project which will continue to push up the price of electricity in the UK.


This is what the developers of the project themselves said about it:



Sounds good, right?

Hinkley has some of the highest costs in the world.
good tactic of comparing it to the worst in the world
 

Hans Von Horn

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Of course tidal lagoons are "an energy solution". All you need is a good tidal range (which Ireland has) and the large investment, probably state-sponsored (err ...). And back-ups.

After that, one is looking for problems.

The biggest is NIMBYism, so it helps is there is a spin-off. Improved transport links are the obvious. Inevitably the "leisure market" (computer-aided simulations of yachts) would be invoked.

Cost? Well, the "original" (Usine marémotrice de la Rance) repaid all its investment, after two decades of operation — and is now rated as better "value" than nukes. That's even after ignoring the on-costs of cleaning up nukes.

Environment? Well, tough on the inter-tidal fauna and flora (sand-eels — your time is up). The operators can control silting to some extent, by managing the sluices. It's going to affect the type of fish-take, but there are substitutes. What you lose on plaice, you gain on sea-bass.

Availability? Ah, now there's the rub. The power comes on tap (geddit?) at certain points of the tidal cycle. I'm told "best performance" is about a quarter of the time, so you need several of these things at different places of the coast line to balance out. In the case of Ireland, north to south, that suggests about half the time the tidal power still might not be available.

Concept? Hardly original. The Romans apparently had a tidal mill on the River Fleet in Londinium. Neldrum on Strangford Lough has been credibly dated to the early seventh century. Little Island in Cork was operating a tide mill about the same time.
Ireland has a poor tidal range.

Are you familiar with EROI ?
 


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