Legalisation of Cannabis

Gladstone

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sackville said:
A_man_about_a_dog said:
I accept the evidence linking cannabis smoking with respiratory illness, but, what alot of these reports do not take into account is that the majority of cannabis smokers put both cannabis and tobacco into their 'joints'. So if a cannabis smoker is also a cigarette smoker then they are obviously going to be at a higher risk of respiratory illness.

As for the mental illness issues, I have spoken in depth with many psychologists and pharmapsychologists (will studying psychology in college) about the realation bewteen cannabis use and mental issues. Many agree that it is self medication which accounts for large portions of the patients which these studies take into account. Also there is new research which says it contains "concrete" evidence that schizophrenia is caused by a biological predisposition. (see link)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E948260

I do not argue with any of the studies which you cite, but, there is the exact same, if not more, of an illness risk from alcohol and cigarettes. Lung cancer, liver cancer, throat cancer, liver and kidney failure to name only the most obvious.
The most shocking thing is that I can walk down to the local shops buy myself cigarettes & alcohol and get the ball rolling on the above illnesses.

I am not saying that there are no downsides to cannabis smoking but nobody can deny that there are just as many, even more, against drink.
It is easy to quote the studies putting down cannabis, but there is also evidence to suggest that cannabis can be extremely effective as a medicine for various conditions/symptoms, e.g: Nausea from chemotherapy, pain from cancers, pain from arthritis, relief from AIDS related symptoms.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/162/12/1685.pdf

I know that legalising cannabis to the general population will not have a profound effect on the ailments listed above but I would like to see one medicinal benefit from alcohol or tobacco?
The reason people think of cannabis as such a 'bad' drug is because of the stigma attached to anything illegal. If alcohol and tobacco were illegal people would hold the exact same views about them, maybe even stronger views seeing as they are more harmful.

As I have said before, its easy to pull out studies on the harmful effects, but, its just as easy to do it for numerous legal drugs.
That schizophrenia may well have a genetic basis is beside the point.

The explanation most accepted is that cannabis triggers the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in predisposed people and also exacerbates the symptoms generally
British Medical Journal "Cannabis and mental health"

[quote:2ai63ncv] A longer follow up and reanalysis of this cohort published in this issue (p 1199) confirms the earlier findings and clarifies that cannabis, and not other drugs, is associated with later schizophrenia and that this is not explained by prodromal symptoms.

In a similar vein, a three year follow up of a Dutch cohort of 4045 people free of psychosis and 59 with a baseline diagnosis of psychotic disorder showed a strong association between use of cannabis and psychosis.

Length of exposure to use of cannabis predicted the severity of the psychosis, which likewise was not explained by use of other drugs.
and as for the " it's not additive" spin:

Participants who showed psychotic symptoms at baseline and used cannabis had a worse outcome, which also implies an additive effect.
another important finding is a link with depression:

This is reflected in higher rates of anxiety or depression according to the frequency with which cannabis was used. The link is stronger for young women than young men in this cohort
these findings strengthen the argument that use of cannabis increases the risk of schizophrenia and depression, and they provide little support for the belief that the association between marijuana use and mental health problems is largely due to self medication
harmless? :roll:

A_man_about_a_dog said:
The reason people think of cannabis as such a 'bad' drug is because of the stigma attached to anything illegal.
or because it is bad![/quote:2ai63ncv]

I don't doubt regular use has negative effects, but since people know that, let them make their own decisions.
 


sackville

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Gladstone said:
I don't doubt regular use has negative effects, but since people know that, let them make their own decisions.
not everyone on this thread seem to know that. much of this is quite recent scientific research.
in the opening post it is described as "non-toxic". there's a lot of disinformation around propagated by the "stoners"
 

Gladstone

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sackville said:
Gladstone said:
I don't doubt regular use has negative effects, but since people know that, let them make their own decisions.
not everyone on this thread seem to know that. much of this is quite recent scientific research.
come on, everyone knows if you smoke hash regularly it makes you dopey, it's common sense.
 

sackville

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Gladstone said:
come on, everyone knows if you smoke hash regularly it makes you dopey, it's common sense.
developing schizophrenia or clinial depression is not quite the same as just making you "dopey".
 

Gladstone

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sackville said:
Gladstone said:
come on, everyone knows if you smoke hash regularly it makes you dopey, it's common sense.
developing schizophrenia or clinial depression is not quite the same as just making you "dopey".
I fail to see why that means it should be illegal tho :?
 

A_man_about_a_dog

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sackville said:
That schizophrenia may well have a genetic basis is beside the point.

The explanation most accepted is that cannabis triggers the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in predisposed people and also exacerbates the symptoms generally
British Medical Journal "Cannabis and mental health"

[quote:1l0830gh] A longer follow up and reanalysis of this cohort published in this issue (p 1199) confirms the earlier findings and clarifies that cannabis, and not other drugs, is associated with later schizophrenia and that this is not explained by prodromal symptoms.

In a similar vein, a three year follow up of a Dutch cohort of 4045 people free of psychosis and 59 with a baseline diagnosis of psychotic disorder showed a strong association between use of cannabis and psychosis.

Length of exposure to use of cannabis predicted the severity of the psychosis, which likewise was not explained by use of other drugs.
and as for the " it's not additive" spin:

Participants who showed psychotic symptoms at baseline and used cannabis had a worse outcome, which also implies an additive effect.
another important finding is a link with depression:

This is reflected in higher rates of anxiety or depression according to the frequency with which cannabis was used. The link is stronger for young women than young men in this cohort
these findings strengthen the argument that use of cannabis increases the risk of schizophrenia and depression, and they provide little support for the belief that the association between marijuana use and mental health problems is largely due to self medication
harmless? :roll:

A_man_about_a_dog said:
The reason people think of cannabis as such a 'bad' drug is because of the stigma attached to anything illegal.
or because it is bad![/quote:1l0830gh]

How is the fact that schizophrenia is gentically predisposed "besides the point", far from it, it is the basis of my point. You cannot tie cannabis use to something which has recently been proved to have a great deal to do with genetics. As for the legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, why will you not talk about the even more harmful diseases and illnessses which they cause????
Face up to the fact that there is more chance of you dying a slow and painful death from drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes then is from smoking a 'joint'.

Addictive properties? I have studied pharmapsychology and one of the key things which my lecturers repeated in realation to cannabis was that there was no physical addiction, unlike caffine, nicotine or morphine. The addication you refer to in your cited links is, I assume, a psychological addiction, the same kind you can get to t.v, shopping, chocolate, etc.

You can argue all you want about the negative effects of cannabis use but as Gladstone said, let people make their own decisions. If they can choose to drink alcohol and smoke tobaccco they should be given the choice as to whether they want to smoke cannabis or not. I recommend J.S Mill "On Liberty", might make you think in a different way when it comes to personal liberty.
 

sackville

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A_man_about_a_dog said:
How is the fact that schizophrenia is gentically predisposed "besides the point", far from it, it is the basis of my point. You cannot tie cannabis use to something which has recently been proved to have a great deal to do with genetics.
apart form the fact that reserch strongly suggests a causation between the drug and the illness :roll:

A_man_about_a_dog said:
As for the legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, why will you not talk about the even more harmful diseases and illnessses which they cause????
perhaps because there's nobody coming on and disputing that they're harmful!
 

cahillB

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cannibis legislation

I am personally of the opinion that while there is definatly a serious problem with the addition of harmful substances, i feel the solution is harsher punishment for offenders. Currently, i belive that anyone caught in possesion of less than 1/4 is generally let away scot-free as for that amount, it is assumed, is for personal consumtion.If someone is in possesion of that amount it is obvious that they have access to more and will contine to offend without any repercussions. It is an issue that requires serious reform.
 

A_man_about_a_dog

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sackville said:
A_man_about_a_dog said:
As for the legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, why will you not talk about the even more harmful diseases and illnessses which they cause????
perhaps because there's nobody coming on and disputing that they're harmful!
Thank you, you've pretty much made my argument for me. You have admitted that they are harmful, so, I dont see why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco should be legal????

They harm you in much more serious ways than cannabis does. Just because something is illegal does not mean that it is in anyway more harmful than legal substances. The reason for why it is illegal in most of the western world is beacuse of the fact that in the 1920's some 'medical professionals' (used very lightly) thought that cannabis was a direct relation of the opiod family, and they therefore thought it caused dementia like that of a heroin user, when in fact it is no relation nor does it have any similar effects to heroin.
Legislation with regard to cannabis is out of date, based on poor/inaccurate information and needs to be looked at seriously.

As for cahilB's comment; a 1/4oz of cannabis is such a minute amount when you consider how much is being smuggled into this country on a weekly basis. The problem is not with somebody having a 1/4, the problem is the importation by the criminals. If the cannabis trade in this country was legalised and regulated by the government/customs/gardaí it would be much better for everyone concerned. Tax revenue, new business opportunities, economic benefits and probably social benefits too. Legalisation is the way forward not harsher sentencing for the average cannabis smoker, that is a ridiculous idea. That would in no way benefit anybody. Garda resources would be wasted even further than they already are being.
 

sackville

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A_man_about_a_dog said:
sackville said:
[quote="A_man_about_a_dog":13woa767]
As for the legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, why will you not talk about the even more harmful diseases and illnessses which they cause????
perhaps because there's nobody coming on and disputing that they're harmful!
Thank you, you've pretty much made my argument for me.
[/quote:13woa767]
a major part of your case was claiming that cannabis is "non-toxic" , and "non-addictive" - recent scientific evidence indicates otherwise. you don't help your case by parroting fashionable, stoner-inspired, untruths.


A_man_about_a_dog said:
I dont see why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco should be legal??
..
a case for prohibition as much as a case for legalisation. If they were newly introdcued substances they would be banned.
 

A_man_about_a_dog

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sackville said:
a major part of your case was claiming that cannabis is "non-toxic" , and "non-addictive" - recent scientific evidence indicates otherwise.

A_man_about_a_dog said:
I dont see why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco should be legal??
..
a case for prohibition :?
I still stand by my arguements that it is non-toxic and non-addictive. You have not one concrete piece of evidence saying it is toxic or that it is physically addictive. Reason for this??
Because it is neither! I already accepted that someone could develop a psychological dependance on cannabis, but not a physical one, but I also made the point that someone can become psychologically addicted to almost anything! It is non toxic, unlike the rocket fuel, rat poison and fertiliser which are used in small amounts in the production of cigarettes.

I am not calling for anything like prohibition, I am simply looking for a level playing field upon which the issue of recreational drugs can be discussed properly. By recreational drugs I include alcohol and tobacco because that is exactly what they are, and harmful ones at that. I dont include cocaine, ecstacy, heroin, LSD, etc because they are man made and obviously harmful. I am simply putting forward the case for a naturally occuring plant, which in my opinion should be allowed to be smoked by anyone who wishes to do so.
I dont claim that cannabis is a purely positive drug, but, I am convinced that there are more down sides to alcohol and tobacco, yet they are legal and consumed by a majority of the world population. Makes very little, if any, sense to me.
 

sackville

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A_man_about_a_dog said:
sackville said:
a major part of your case was claiming that cannabis is "non-toxic" , and "non-addictive" - recent scientific evidence indicates otherwise.

[quote="A_man_about_a_dog":1ixxy8a5] I dont see why should drugs like alcohol and tobacco should be legal??
..
a case for prohibition :?
I still stand by my arguements that it is non-toxic and non-addictive. You have not one concrete piece of evidence saying it is toxic or that it is physically addictive. [/quote:1ixxy8a5] patently untrue! (a sfor the "physically additive" point , the same is said of cocaine-users so they are 'only' dependent when they crave for it).

A_man_about_a_dog said:
By recreational drugs I include alcohol and tobacco because that is exactly what they are, and harmful ones at that. I dont include cocaine, ecstacy, heroin, LSD, etc because they are man made and obviously harmful
are you aware of something called the Naturalistic Fallacy ? (add it to all the other fallacies you buy into)
why not encourage a substance abuse-free lifstyle for all society instead of focusing energies on promoting a selfish habit?
 

A_man_about_a_dog

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sackville said:
why not encourage a substance-free lifstyle for all society instead of focusing energies on promoting a selfish habit?
Because I have no problem with 'substance'. My only problem is with authoritarian know-it-all's like you trying to tell people that they can't do this (because it is harmful) but you can do that (even though that is more harmful). Hypocrisy!!!!!

I am presuming since you ignored my earlier suggestion about J.S Mill "On Liberty"" you have not read it. It may open up your mind a bit more towards personal liberty. Here is a small sample;

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives"
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant."
"Over one's mind and over one's body the individual is sovereign"
 

The OD

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jady88 said:
We need a radical response not jsut the same old war on this war on that crap.
Best quote of the week!!!!
 

sackville

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A_man_about_a_dog said:
I have no problem with 'substance']
when it comes to making your case I don't know 'bout that! :lol:
 

Coles

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A_man_about_a_dog said:
I still stand by my arguements that it is non-toxic and non-addictive. You have not one concrete piece of evidence saying it is toxic or that it is physically addictive. Reason for this??
Because it is neither! I already accepted that someone could develop a psychological dependance on cannabis, but not a physical one, but I also made the point that someone can become psychologically addicted to almost anything! It is non toxic, unlike the rocket fuel, rat poison and fertiliser which are used in small amounts in the production of cigarettes.

I am not calling for anything like prohibition, I am simply looking for a level playing field upon which the issue of recreational drugs can be discussed properly. By recreational drugs I include alcohol and tobacco because that is exactly what they are, and harmful ones at that. I dont include cocaine, ecstacy, heroin, LSD, etc because they are man made and obviously harmful. I am simply putting forward the case for a naturally occuring plant, which in my opinion should be allowed to be smoked by anyone who wishes to do so.
I dont claim that cannabis is a purely positive drug, but, I am convinced that there are more down sides to alcohol and tobacco, yet they are legal and consumed by a majority of the world population. Makes very little, if any, sense to me.
Good post. By the way, the reason why cannabis is illegal here is because it was made illegal in the US. And the reason it was made illegal in the US? Because a very wealthy businessman with huge timber holdings lobbied for it to be banned. Previous to that, paper was largely made from hemp.
 

sackville

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Coles said:
A_man_about_a_dog said:
I still stand by my arguements that it is non-toxic and non-addictive. You have not one concrete piece of evidence saying it is toxic or that it is physically addictive. Reason for this??
Because it is neither! I already accepted that someone could develop a psychological dependance on cannabis, but not a physical one, but I also made the point that someone can become psychologically addicted to almost anything! It is non toxic, unlike the rocket fuel, rat poison and fertiliser which are used in small amounts in the production of cigarettes.

I am not calling for anything like prohibition, I am simply looking for a level playing field upon which the issue of recreational drugs can be discussed properly. By recreational drugs I include alcohol and tobacco because that is exactly what they are, and harmful ones at that. I dont include cocaine, ecstacy, heroin, LSD, etc because they are man made and obviously harmful. I am simply putting forward the case for a naturally occuring plant, which in my opinion should be allowed to be smoked by anyone who wishes to do so.
I dont claim that cannabis is a purely positive drug, but, I am convinced that there are more down sides to alcohol and tobacco, yet they are legal and consumed by a majority of the world population. Makes very little, if any, sense to me.
Good post.
you reckon? what about the schizophrenia and depression issues? are you trying to deny reality too?
 

Coles

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sackville said:
Coles said:
A_man_about_a_dog said:
I still stand by my arguements that it is non-toxic and non-addictive. You have not one concrete piece of evidence saying it is toxic or that it is physically addictive. Reason for this??
Because it is neither! I already accepted that someone could develop a psychological dependance on cannabis, but not a physical one, but I also made the point that someone can become psychologically addicted to almost anything! It is non toxic, unlike the rocket fuel, rat poison and fertiliser which are used in small amounts in the production of cigarettes.

I am not calling for anything like prohibition, I am simply looking for a level playing field upon which the issue of recreational drugs can be discussed properly. By recreational drugs I include alcohol and tobacco because that is exactly what they are, and harmful ones at that. I dont include cocaine, ecstacy, heroin, LSD, etc because they are man made and obviously harmful. I am simply putting forward the case for a naturally occuring plant, which in my opinion should be allowed to be smoked by anyone who wishes to do so.
I dont claim that cannabis is a purely positive drug, but, I am convinced that there are more down sides to alcohol and tobacco, yet they are legal and consumed by a majority of the world population. Makes very little, if any, sense to me.
Good post.
you reckon? what about the schizophrenia and depression issues? are you trying to deny reality too?
I've been following your contributions to this topic and to be honest, I really haven't been inclined to enter into a discussion with you. Not because I believe your argument is well-founded and irrefutable, quite the opposite, and because you seem unable to comprehend an opposing opinion to your own. I believe your argument is primarily based on ignorance, but also half-truths, exageration and lies.

There is no substance that does not cause harm when used in excess. That is what 'excess' is. If someone drinks 15 units of alcohol a day, eats 5 burgers a day, smokes 5 joints a day or takes 10 Viagra a day, for a prolonged period, they will do themselves harm. Any amount of scientific research can be found to back up this statement. However, such scientific research can not be stretched and massaged to cover the use of a substance 'in moderation'. 'In moderation' implies a self-respect for your own body and mind.

It is essential that information and education is available to ensure that an informed choice is made. Certain substances, such as heroin and cocaine, have a very low threshold before their use should be considered to be 'in excess' due to their high physical addiction. I would never advocate the use of such substances as I believe their addiction is highly dangerous. If a person makes a choice to use a highly addictive drug, or any substance in excess, in reality they are doing self-harm, and the weapon used (alcohol, drug, food, poison, or knife) is not of importance.

Marijuana is not physically addictive. When used 'in moderation' it is not harmful. Marijuana does not cause aggression. Marijuana is used medicinally for pain relief, and recreationally to relieve stress.

If you seriously oppose the legalisation of Marijuana on health grounds then you need to look at the facts. Children in our society already have easy access to a more harmful cannibinoid substance, hashish. The production of hashish is completely unregulated and the profits from the distribution of hashish goes into the pockets of organised criminal gangs. Any amount of law enforcment will not change that situation. Opposition to the legalisation of Marijuana will only continue this harm, to users and to society.

If on the other hand, you oppose the legalisation of Marijuana from some authoritarian view point where you believe that everybody should be told what they can do and what's forbidden (which I think you do), then you're just wrong...
 


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