Lenihan tells Dáil that EU/IMF deal does not require approval of the Dáil

oggy

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It's a memorandum of understanding.

The parties understand that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment due to the cost of those borrowings. They further understand that Ireland has messed up it's economy by spending substantially more each year than it actually earns. In addition Ireland allowed its banks to grow to a ridiculous size and then allowed them to become over exposed through a combination of an excessive reliance on wholesale funding which disappeared in the credit crunch and an excessive exposure to a huge property bubble in Ireland. The collapse of the assets of the banks has created an additional burden on the State by virtue of their guaranteeing most of the liabilities of same banks.

Following on from the above the lending parties are prepared to make a range of funds available to Ireland should they wish to draw them down. The facilities will vary in term but will last no more than 7.5 years. The funds will be provided from a combination of sources and on a combination of different terms - however if all facilities were to be drawn down the combined average interest cost would be c5.8% at the moment. The funds will be available to draw down in tranches subject to satisfactory attainment of agreed goals.

The lending parties understand that Ireland will use 17.5Bn of its own funds as part of the resolution of its debt problem. These funds will come from the NPRF and other cash deposits held by NTMA. In addition a range of structural and fiscal measures will be taken by Ireland over the coming years with a view to reducing their fiscal deficit to 3% by 2015.

There is no obligation on Ireland to access this facility. There is no obligation on the lending parties to provide this facility. However both parties understand that this mou has been entered into in good faith.

Not a contract. Not a treaty. We don't have to take it up - but if we don't we are bankrupted and will need to cut a minimum of €19bn out of our budget next year (a minimum because when we go back into the market to roll over our existing €90bn national debt we will have to pay interest at rates of 10% plus. Alternatively we can default on everything and see how that goes.
Absolutely excellent post but more than likely wasted on those who have nothing else but a bitter and juvenile agenda and who will refuse to offer a balanced rebuttal
 


Padraigin

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Absolutely excellent post but more than likely wasted on those who have nothing else but a bitter and juvenile agenda and who will refuse to offer a balanced rebuttal
If the Debt Enslavement Deal means nothing more than a bunch of bureaucrats drawing figures on a piece of paper for idle speculation, then, yeah, no need to take such a useless and meaningless piece of paper to the Dail for approval, because it is not a binding agreement. It means nothing. It has no enforceability. Nobody is bound to do anything at all.

Is that what this "memorandum" is?

If so, then let Lenihan, Cowen, and the others tell everyone that they all got drunk last Sunday, jotted some notes down when they were completely non compos mentis, and now that they are sober again, they are sorry for all the bother.

On the other hand, if the "memorandum" represents the first step in a binding agreement to allow foreign interests to strip Ireland of its assets, to tell the Dail what laws it will and will not be allowed to enact, to obligate the Irish people to enslave themselves for generations to foreign banks, then, yeah, this does constitute an international agreement that must be enacted by the Dail - and then sent to the Irish people with a referendum.

The Debt Enslavement Deal has to comply with the Irish Constitution to be valid and enforceable. That means a Dail vote.

Neither Lenihan nor Cowen nor anyone in that government have read the Constitution since they were in school. It shows.
 

turdsl

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It's a memorandum of understanding.

The parties understand that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment due to the cost of those borrowings. They further understand that Ireland has messed up it's economy by spending substantially more each year than it actually earns. In addition Ireland allowed its banks to grow to a ridiculous size and then allowed them to become over exposed through a combination of an excessive reliance on wholesale funding which disappeared in the credit crunch and an excessive exposure to a huge property bubble in Ireland. The collapse of the assets of the banks has created an additional burden on the State by virtue of their guaranteeing most of the liabilities of same banks.

Following on from the above the lending parties are prepared to make a range of funds available to Ireland should they wish to draw them down. The facilities will vary in term but will last no more than 7.5 years. The funds will be provided from a combination of sources and on a combination of different terms - however if all facilities were to be drawn down the combined average interest cost would be c5.8% at the moment. The funds will be available to draw down in tranches subject to satisfactory attainment of agreed goals.

The lending parties understand that Ireland will use 17.5Bn of its own funds as part of the resolution of its debt problem. These funds will come from the NPRF and other cash deposits held by NTMA. In addition a range of structural and fiscal measures will be taken by Ireland over the coming years with a view to reducing their fiscal deficit to 3% by 2015.

There is no obligation on Ireland to access this facility. There is no obligation on the lending parties to provide this facility. However both parties understand that this mou has been entered into in good faith.

Not a contract. Not a treaty. We don't have to take it up - but if we don't we are bankrupted and will need to cut a minimum of €19bn out of our budget next year (a minimum because when we go back into the market to roll over our existing €90bn national debt we will have to pay interest at rates of 10% plus. Alternatively we can default on everything and see how that goes.

I agree with most of your post, but shame on Fianna Fail for having brought our people back to the pauper with his begging bowl in his hand once again, Shame on Fianna Fail for having put future generation, in debt to foreigners once again, No. we do not have to take it, we are bankrupted if we do not, Just like the poor unfortunate pauper shaking with the cold, take the cup of soup and the slice of bread, if you do not you die, You are correct, this government has us on our knees, we take the soup or die, Lenihan did not leave us much choice. We better take it.
 

ONQ

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Yes, Lenihan, Cowan and Ahern will live on in infamy as the trio of asreholes who brought our country to its knees.

We're down, but not out - its time to start planning the recovery of Ireland and the EU and stop whinging.

That means (i) banks who can led and a (ii) source of monies to address the debt.

Read my signature file below and lets get it together!

ONQ.

=================================================
Get the Banks Lending Money again so as to enable the Recovery.

Tax the $14 Quadrillion Dollar Derivative Market to repay the Debt.
=================================================
 

Padraigin

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I agree with most of your post, but shame on Fianna Fail for having brought our people back to the pauper with his begging bowl in his hand once again, Shame on Fianna Fail for having put future generation, in debt to foreigners once again, No. we do not have to take it, we are bankrupted if we do not, Just like the poor unfortunate pauper shaking with the cold, take the cup of soup and the slice of bread, if you do not you die, You are correct, this government has us on our knees, we take the soup or die, Lenihan did not leave us much choice. We better take it.

No, you do not need to take it. Listen to the economists, not the politicians. The Irish politicians are lying through their teeth when they say there is no choice. They are trying to save their own necks, no one else's, and they absolutely have betrayed the country and its people. The Debt Enslavement Deal benefits no one but (1) foreign investors who need to accept the risks of their own bad investments and not look to the Irish people to pay their debts and (2) the Irish political elites who want to either (a) keep themselves in positions of power and/or (b) stay out of prison.

The economists are clearly saying that a default right now would be good for Ireland, and a far, far better outcome than the Debt Enslavement Deal. The Irish economy is stronger than the other countries in financial trouble right now. Remember, this crisis has nothing to with the underlying Irish economy - this is a pure bank mismanagement issue, made into a financial meltdowm by the bank guarantee.

The Irish govenrment takes in enough tax reventue to maintain the status quo without borrowing. The country's financial reserves will start growing again once there is no need to continue to service the bad debt (the default bonus, if you will). Once the failed banks are closed and new ones chartered, the banking crisis is over. Let the bond holders and the shareholders fight over the assets of the failed bank, but this is not anything that should concern Irish taxpayers. Depositor guarantees should be honored with the new currency, and the new punts will get introduced just like the roll out of the euro some years ago. Everyone will have forgotten this happened in a year or two.

This is all do-able and not particularly difficult.
 
Last edited:

Raketemensch

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When FF are in a hurry to get something through I get worried. There is something else going on here.
You are right there. The rats are scared for their own dirty skins. Can someone in the know give us a steer here?
 

Catalpa

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5. 1° Every international agreement to which the State becomes a party shall be laid before Dáil Éireann.

2° The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann.

3° This section shall not apply to agreements or conventions of a technical and adminstrative character.


*

1.This is an International Agreement as the EU is a legally distinct polity in its own right & the agreement is between it and the Irish State.

3. This agreement is clearly far beyond the substance and import of one that is just of a technical and adminstrative character.

Hence sub section 2 clearly applies here:

The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann.
 

Decadance

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It's a memorandum of understanding.

The parties understand that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment due to the cost of those borrowings. They further understand that Ireland has messed up it's economy by spending substantially more each year than it actually earns. In addition Ireland allowed its banks to grow to a ridiculous size and then allowed them to become over exposed through a combination of an excessive reliance on wholesale funding which disappeared in the credit crunch and an excessive exposure to a huge property bubble in Ireland. The collapse of the assets of the banks has created an additional burden on the State by virtue of their guaranteeing most of the liabilities of same banks.

Following on from the above the lending parties are prepared to make a range of funds available to Ireland should they wish to draw them down. The facilities will vary in term but will last no more than 7.5 years. The funds will be provided from a combination of sources and on a combination of different terms - however if all facilities were to be drawn down the combined average interest cost would be c5.8% at the moment. The funds will be available to draw down in tranches subject to satisfactory attainment of agreed goals.

The lending parties understand that Ireland will use 17.5Bn of its own funds as part of the resolution of its debt problem. These funds will come from the NPRF and other cash deposits held by NTMA. In addition a range of structural and fiscal measures will be taken by Ireland over the coming years with a view to reducing their fiscal deficit to 3% by 2015.

There is no obligation on Ireland to access this facility. There is no obligation on the lending parties to provide this facility. However both parties understand that this mou has been entered into in good faith.

Not a contract. Not a treaty. We don't have to take it up - but if we don't we are bankrupted and will need to cut a minimum of €19bn out of our budget next year (a minimum because when we go back into the market to roll over our existing €90bn national debt we will have to pay interest at rates of 10% plus. Alternatively we can default on everything and see how that goes.
I agree that what we have is a memo of understanding - however the courts will look behind the form of the agreement to what it actually is. In this case shoud we draw down on the agreement it is a binding contract/agreement as I assume we have to pay the money back. Key then is the transformation of the memo to terms of an agreement. Therefore the Govt. decision to proceed to act on the memo does require a vote - not the memo itself.

Lenihans statement is clever - it states that:
The question has been raised as to whether this support programme has the status of an international agreement. I am advised by the Attorney General that the Programme, and these supporting documents do not represent international agreements and do not require the approval of the Dáil. I am presenting the documents to the Dáil, for information and to inform discussion of the programme.

Brian Lenihan TD, Minister for Finance

read it again - the programme (i.e. the memo) and these supporting documents do not represent an international agreement - they are merely documents, however once they act on them, it is an international agreement.

Do not be surprised if somewhere in Dail votes on finance bill or some other budget legislation as small line will approve the agreement with IMF/EU.
 

SinnShane

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They said the exact same when the by-election case was looming.

They're obviously anxious.
 

Raketemensch

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+1.

They were the same with NAMA.. completely gung ho and anxious to stifle any debate over the issue.

Usually means they are up to no good
Like NAMA it's not going to fill the hole made by Seanie, Fingers and friends. You could drop the US economy into their hole!

Basically it's time to get learning Chinese, German or whatever, see where you can move with your skills for a few years and let the politicians and bankers pay this back themselves. Good luck lads:D
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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More evidence of the fact we are living in a dictatorship. At least Saddam Hussein and his like, had the balls to put on Military uniforms and display mass weapons and military power in front of the people giving them the very least, the dignity of the state of being very physically apparant that they were in a dictatorship.

Our crowd of pathetic looking weasels in suits try and deceive us with the illusion of liberty.

Scum of the Earth. I hope they all die screaming.
 

PUFF DADDY

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Rabbitte said fahey might fear property taxes on all his properties...pat on floor now doing good
 
D

Deleted member 17573

This thread is about the attempts by the FF fascist government to avoid the matter being dealt with by the sovereign parliament of the country. Whether the document constitutes a treaty or a memorandum of understanding is beside the point. The central point is that the spirit of the relevant section of the Constitution is, unequivocally, that this is indeed a matter for the Dáil.
If FF want to play party politics with this issue all they have to do is allow a vote - it would split the next government down the middle even before the election is held.
 

karldaly

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.
"The parties don't understand that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment due to the cost of those borrowings"

.
Totally wrong Sir;

The REAL reason 'that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment' is due to the fact that this government made a horrific mistake on 29th September 2010 by giving a blanket guarantee to the banks of ALL their gambling debts.

That decision has cost Ireland TENS OF BILLIONS in the ensuing 24 months and that's the REAL reason 'that Ireland is unable to secure borrowings in the external markets at the moment.'
It was that decision which has caused our downfall.
That was a wrong decision.
NAMA was a wrong decision and the bond markets on Monday morning proved that the SELLOUT last Sunday night was a wrong decision.

The government has been warned at every step of the way that they were making bad decisions but they will listen to nobody, because they have their own agendas and those agendas have now beggared the Irish people.

I for one sincerely hope that the bankers and politicians who are responsible for this catastrophe burn in hell for what they have done to this country.

.
.
 

Raketemensch

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More evidence of the fact we are living in a dictatorship. At least Saddam Hussein and his like, had the balls to put on Military uniforms and display mass weapons and military power in front of the people giving them the very least, the dignity of the state of being very physically apparant that they were in a dictatorship.

Our crowd of pathetic looking weasels in suits try and deceive us with the illusion of liberty.

Scum of the Earth. I hope they all die screaming.
Ireland has always been authoritarian rather than democratic but the small poplulation, close cohesiveness and social homogeneity means that threats to the indestructible status quo do not generally require the violence more usually associated with authoritarian regimes.
For example, if a whistleblower in a bank or gov dept. discovers something awful, where do they go? Nobody who matters take any notice of them because it threatens their own position. The Church, The Guards, the media, the Dail, the Courts, it's all part of the same self-preserving system. And now Lenny is impoverishing the people for decades to preserve that system.
 

karldaly

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".....made a horrific mistake on 29th September 2010 by giving a blanket guarantee to the banks of ALL their gambling debts"

That should have read 29th of September 2008
.
.
 

powderfinger

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Roche in the Dail speed reading a fairy tale into an empty House now.
It's a travesty.
 


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