Lenihan: "What makes me angry is those who have brought us to this place"

Catch 22

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Minister for Killing Children via the HSE, 2002–2007
Minister for Imprisoning Children, 2007–2008
Minister for Condemning Children to a lifetime of penury, 2008–present

What has the man got against children.....?
And what about our unborn children and their unborn children?
Sold out to a new generation of Absentee Landlords??
 


Disillusioned democrat

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The real question I have regarding Brian Lenihan - and I believe I already know the answer, but hopefully I will be proven wrong in the future - is whether he's incompetent and well meaning or corrupt. His angry now does nothing for anyone...but a little creative thinking and a bit of honesty would go a long way to making the impact of this crisis easier to manage and fairer. His actions from now on will answer the question. If he's incompetent he can change his ways, take better advice and make fairer decisions. If he's corrupt he'll stay on the current course and continue to proclaim his anger from the rooftops until the general election, where I believe he'll "retire" for health reasons.
 

ChickenBiryani

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OK chaps, just to point out (as I am new here);

1) In terms of where I am coming from (banking, with an in depth knowledge of law & the regulatory side), I think that your whole notions of how much extra we are on the hook for as a result of decisions taken since 2007, is far less than you would believe. Since the Lehmans collapse, everything has been a zero sum game. The alternative to the taxpayers picking up the tab, was individual depositors suffering which would have made the Gaybo scenes at Anglo's AGM even worse. I think everything that has been done since then is just tinkering around the edges, the amount saved by screwing bondholders etc is minor in the great scheme of things.

2) As a result of (1) I think you are attributing far greater power and consequently blame to BL.

3) Regardless of 1 or 2, the statement by the man was clearly intended to encompass everything that happened to get our banks to this state.

I simply don't see, no matter what any of you say, how the minister for what ever title other than finance had in terms of real power during the period in which damage was done.

Its very easy now to say he should have stood up , resigned etc, when the whole country, includign the unions and the opposition at the time were fully on board with the same policies.

OTOH, I do think McCreevey, Ahern & Cowen have the lions share of the blame, since they were the people with the genuine power at the time.
 

FakeViking

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OK chaps, just to point out (as I am new here);

1) In terms of where I am coming from (banking, with an in depth knowledge of law & the regulatory side), I think that your whole notions of how much extra we are on the hook for as a result of decisions taken since 2007, is far less than you would believe. Since the Lehmans collapse, everything has been a zero sum game. The alternative to the taxpayers picking up the tab, was individual depositors suffering which would have made the Gaybo scenes at Anglo's AGM even worse. I think everything that has been done since then is just tinkering around the edges, the amount saved by screwing bondholders etc is minor in the great scheme of things.

2) As a result of (1) I think you are attributing far greater power and consequently blame to BL.

3) Regardless of 1 or 2, the statement by the man was clearly intended to encompass everything that happened to get our banks to this state.

I simply don't see, no matter what any of you say, how the minister for what ever title other than finance had in terms of real power during the period in which damage was done.

Its very easy now to say he should have stood up , resigned etc, when the whole country, includign the unions and the opposition at the time were fully on board with the same policies.

OTOH, I do think McCreevey, Ahern & Cowen have the lions share of the blame, since they were the people with the genuine power at the time.
I see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with your point 1.

But even with that, don't you think a little humility wouldn't go astray? This constant spin that BL exudes (turned the corner, etc) is one thing, but his refusal to admit any mistakes is particularly galling.

He knows full well that this Govt is teetering, the only thing that keeps them together is the fear of an election. He knows that an incoming Govt (even if it's the exact same personnel) will not hesitate in reversing many of the steps he's taken. But he isn't man enough to admit he's made mistakes, or that his boss is a disaster.
 

ChickenBiryani

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I see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with your point 1.

But even with that, don't you think a little humility wouldn't go astray? This constant spin that BL exudes (turned the corner, etc) is one thing, but his refusal to admit any mistakes is particularly galling.

He knows full well that this Govt is teetering, the only thing that keeps them together is the fear of an election. He knows that an incoming Govt (even if it's the exact same personnel) will not hesitate in reversing many of the steps he's taken. But he isn't man enough to admit he's made mistakes, or that his boss is a disaster.
Well, to be honest, I think BL has a job where he is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, and I can't begin to imagine the competing interests he is trying to grapple with behind the scenes.

He was handed the most horrific job in the history of ministers for finance in this state with no easy choices. He is trying to plug away, conscious that any display of hesitancy or weakness might be seized upon. To some this is probably arrogance, but I actually think he is doing a decent job all things considered, and is the only decent character on the FF front bench.

Don't flame me for it, I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like; its easy to be an internet hero, imagining that you would be a shining beacon of righteousness if placed in the same situation. And I suspect that BL is coping rather better with the situation than most of the people here to whom the internet affords the anonymity to slate and belittle him.

Just to further expand on my personal belief, I think we should and will default eventually. We are past the event horizon in this crisis and no amount of tinkering will get us out of it. This is FF's fault, and they are going to suffer generational losses because of it.

I just don't think now is the time for it; if Labour/FG get in they will be faced with similar choices and I think that until the next budget gets out of the way, stability is the best bet. Therefore, I don't think either that BL should come out and openly criticise BC, which would almost certainly bring down the Govt.
 

froggus

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The full damage had not been consolidated until the bank guarantee. We had options until then. Everything since including nationalising Anglo and introducing NAMA has been trying to fix the unintended consequences of the blanket guarantee. FF set us up for a fall, BL put his foot out and tripped us.
 

grafter1

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Well, to be honest, I think BL has a job where he is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, and I can't begin to imagine the competing interests he is trying to grapple with behind the scenes.

He was handed the most horrific job in the history of ministers for finance in this state with no easy choices. He is trying to plug away, conscious that any display of hesitancy or weakness might be seized upon. To some this is probably arrogance, but I actually think he is doing a decent job all things considered, and is the only decent character on the FF front bench.

Don't flame me for it, I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like; its easy to be an internet hero, imagining that you would be a shining beacon of righteousness if placed in the same situation. And I suspect that BL is coping rather better with the situation than most of the people here to whom the internet affords the anonymity to slate and belittle him.

Just to further expand on my personal belief, I think we should and will default eventually. We are past the event horizon in this crisis and no amount of tinkering will get us out of it. This is FF's fault, and they are going to suffer generational losses because of it.

I just don't think now is the time for it; if Labour/FG get in they will be faced with similar choices and I think that until the next budget gets out of the way, stability is the best bet. Therefore, I don't think either that BL should come out and openly criticise BC, which would almost certainly bring down the Govt.
2 great posts Chicken. I would by and large concur with your views.
 

DCon

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Is lenihan angry with Lenihan family friend, Joe O'Reilly?

This is Anglo ‘Golden Circle’ investor Joe O’Reilly relaxing by the pool in a five-star Algarve golf resort after his property empire was taken over by Nama.

And the developer – a high-profile Fianna Fail supporter who is friendly with the Lenihan family – has plenty to smile about as he adjusts his parasol to shade himself from the 35°C heat in the Portuguese paradise.
Builder Joe O'Reilly, a friend of Fianna Fail, frolics in the sun as NAMA takes over his Anglo debts | Mail Online
 

olamp

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The full damage had not been consolidated until the bank guarantee. We had options until then. Everything since including nationalising Anglo and introducing NAMA has been trying to fix the unintended consequences of the blanket guarantee. FF set us up for a fall, BL put his foot out and tripped us.
Love Gene Kerrigan in yesterday`s Sindo" If Mr Lenihan was on the Titanic he`d have said "Bloody wonderful -there`s nothing as delightful as a midnight swim".
 

FakeViking

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Well, to be honest, I think BL has a job where he is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, and I can't begin to imagine the competing interests he is trying to grapple with behind the scenes.

He was handed the most horrific job in the history of ministers for finance in this state with no easy choices. He is trying to plug away, conscious that any display of hesitancy or weakness might be seized upon. To some this is probably arrogance, but I actually think he is doing a decent job all things considered, and is the only decent character on the FF front bench.

Don't flame me for it, I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like; its easy to be an internet hero, imagining that you would be a shining beacon of righteousness if placed in the same situation. And I suspect that BL is coping rather better with the situation than most of the people here to whom the internet affords the anonymity to slate and belittle him.

Just to further expand on my personal belief, I think we should and will default eventually. We are past the event horizon in this crisis and no amount of tinkering will get us out of it. This is FF's fault, and they are going to suffer generational losses because of it.

I just don't think now is the time for it; if Labour/FG get in they will be faced with similar choices and I think that until the next budget gets out of the way, stability is the best bet. Therefore, I don't think either that BL should come out and openly criticise BC, which would almost certainly bring down the Govt.
The cynic in me has a less charitable theory.

Lenihan knows the GE is lost. But it's not in his interest (if he lives) or in FF's interest for the next administration to come to power before the end of the Ahern/Cowen/Lenihan bust. He wants to make sure thet Kenny/Gilmore inherit the worst possible outcome, and rapidly become much more unpopular than FF are now. Another GE will happen in 2-3 years time, and FF Nua will promise a return to the boom they "brought" you before.

It's high treason.
 

cjudge

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....This final point conjures up the following very likely scenario:

1. Developer takes out a 100 million loan for a project
2. He pays for the land - 25 million say - and leaves 75 million on deposit in Anglo, paying subcontractors out of that until the bubble bursts.
3. Anglo gets Nationalised.
4. Developer salts away the 75 million thanks to Fianna Fail removing the "unnecessary clause" in the nationalisation legislation at the last minute
5. Developer's loan of 100 million transferred to NAMA; taxpayer pays for some portion of the original loan.
6. Tax-payer "recapitalises" Anglo for the rest of the original 100 million loan.
7. Lord Henry Mountcharles witnesses developers toasting NAMA in Spain.

.....This is the heist that we have just borne witness to. The Golden Circle has been saved at the cost of the general citizen. Unemployment, emigration, divorce, drug-use, alcoholism and mental health issues will rise in incidence amongst the Irish populace while life-span, education, quality of life and health will correspondingly decline. Meanwhile,"those who got us here", such as Neary, Fingleton, Drumm, Hurley and the rest of the cronies of Fianna Fail are insulated from justice and from the penury they have inflicted on the rest of society by the protective shield erected by Lenihan and his fellow Ba'athists.
+1
 

ChickenBiryani

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Thats a ridiculous theory to be honest. You are suggesting Brian Lenihan is deliberately trying to make things worse so whoever inherits the mess next is going to look even worse?

I'd heard that you were a weird bunch on P.ie but that just takes the biscuit ;)
 

kerdasi amaq

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FF, but in this particular case, it strikes me that BL could come out tomorrow and say the sky is blue, and you would argue him and denounce him no matter what.
Mind you, if he said that, I'd look outside and check to see if it's true! You can't trust these FF chancers.
 

FakeViking

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Thats a ridiculous theory to be honest. You are suggesting Brian Lenihan is deliberately trying to make things worse so whoever inherits the mess next is going to look even worse?

I'd heard that you were a weird bunch on P.ie but that just takes the biscuit ;)
Commission McCarthy to write a report, then do nothing.
Allow a structural defecit of €20 billion to continue.
Refuse to do any serious reform of the Welfare system.
Sign up for the Good Friday, sorry Croke Park accord.
Throw every available euro down the Anglo hole, knowing that a real bank (AIB) needs it much more.

Hardly the actions of a man who wants to resolve the problems facing our country.
 

Squire Allworthy

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ChickenBiryani

The initial mistake he made was the nature and scope of the guarantee. That is the pivotal point.
 

greengoose2

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Originally Posted by ChickenBiryani
FF, but in this particular case, it strikes me that BL could come out tomorrow and say the sky is blue, and you would argue him and denounce him no matter what.
Mind you, if he said that, I'd look outside and check to see if it's true! You can't trust these FF chancers.
He probably would say the sky is blue while singing:

Gray skies are gonna clear up,
Put on a happy face;
Brush off the clouds and cheer up,
Put on a happy face.
Take off the gloomy mask of tragedy,
It's not your style;
You'll look so good that you'll be glad
Ya' decide to smile!
Pick out a pleasant outlook,
Stick out that noble chin;
Wipe off that "full of doubt" look,
Slap on a happy grin!
And spread sunshine all over the place,
Just put on a happy face!
Put on a happy face
Put on a happy face
And if you're feeling cross and bitterish
Don't sit and whine
Think of banana split and licorice
And you'll feel fine
I knew a girl so glooming
She'd never laugh or sing
She wouldn't listen to me
Now she's a mean old thing
So spread sunshine all over the place
Just put on a happy face
So, put on a happy face
 

cjudge

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Some people are doing well out of the downfall of the people 'who have brought us to this place'.

Paul Coulson, aka 'Cooler', of Ardagh Glass has agreed to pay $1.7 billion for a can maker Ardagh Glass to pay €1.7bn for can-maker - The Irish Times - Mon, Sep 27, 2010

Cooler pulled off one of the most spectacular deals of the celtic tiger. He sold the Irish Glass Bottle site in Ringsend for more than €412 million to a consortium which included Ailesbury Road neighbour Bernard McNamara, fellow Shrewsbury Road resident Derek Quinlan, and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Last I heard, that site was valued at €60 million. - two chances of fetching that now.
 

ChickenBiryani

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Commission McCarthy to write a report, then do nothing.
Allow a structural defecit of €20 billion to continue.
Refuse to do any serious reform of the Welfare system.
Sign up for the Good Friday, sorry Croke Park accord.
Throw every available euro down the Anglo hole, knowing that a real bank (AIB) needs it much more.

Hardly the actions of a man who wants to resolve the problems facing our country.
I happen to agree with points 1-4, but I believe the reasons for those things are political not financial or economic.

My own philosophy is that while I understand the principles behind Keynesian deficit spending during recessions, there are limits to it, and sometimes a short sharp shock is preferable to death of a 1000 cuts.

I think we should default and radically restructure the public services & taxation systems but I have no doubt if those things were done tomorrow you would be criticising him for it too.

But this is a moot point and not reason for me to suggest that a man who believes otherwise has nefarious motives, which is at the core of this. Thats the point of a democracy. We elect and appoint people, they take decisons on our behalf, not all of which we agree with. It doesnt mean they are enemies of the state.
 

adrem

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Will we ever get the answer to the questions that DCon, Powderfinger, Cactus and Sidey have been asking: who were the depositors in Anglo on 28 September 2008? How much money on deposit in Anglo originated as loans from Anglo? Why did Fianna Fail omit a clause in the nationalisation legislation that would have protected Anglo deposits where the deposit-holders held large loans?

This final point conjures up the following very likely scenario:

1. Developer takes out a 100 million loan for a project
2. He pays for the land - 25 million say - and leaves 75 million on deposit in Anglo, paying subcontractors out of that until the bubble bursts.
3. Anglo gets Nationalised.
4. Developer salts away the 75 million thanks to Fianna Fail removing the "unnecessary clause" in the nationalisation legislation at the last minute
5. Developer's loan of 100 million transferred to NAMA; taxpayer pays for some portion of the original loan.
6. Tax-payer "recapitalises" Anglo for the rest of the original 100 million loan.
7. Lord Henry Mountcharles witnesses developers toasting NAMA in Spain.

This is the heist that we have just borne witness to. The Golden Circle has been saved at the cost of the general citizen. Unemployment, emigration, divorce, drug-use, alcoholism and mental health issues will rise in incidence amongst the Irish populace while life-span, education, quality of life and health will correspondingly decline. Meanwhile,"those who got us here", such as Neary, Fingleton, Drumm, Hurley and the rest of the cronies of Fianna Fail are insulated from justice and from the penury they have inflicted on the rest of society by the protective shield erected by Lenihan and his fellow Ba'athists. Be thankful all is not lost: Fianna Fail's primary constituency - the corrupt Golden Circle - can luxuriate. And their children will exploit your children when it all comes round again.

Lenihan is angry with these people? Give me a break.

You are deluded !! You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about whatsoever. You have no concept of how the business world works at all - other than that which you have read from the back of cereal boxes and cartoons. Seriously, Ba'athists?? seriously??

You honestly believe that when a development starts the bank just hands over 100M? The final loan cost of the entire development which will take maybe 2 years and they just hand it over up front?

I would tend to agree with ChickenBiryani - some posters would criticise Lenihan if he commented that the sun rose in the morning and set at night.
 


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