Let's not forget the PDs...

mido

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Aug 28, 2007
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The PDs were th only decent thing to happen to Irish politics in the last 25 years. Which makes it even sadder that they chose to "go native" when they got into government with FF.
what the hell was decent about anything they did - they were an amalgam of spoilt ffers and renegade blueshirts aping the worst excesses of thatchers policies- may they always be remembered as the architects of the day of infamy delivered by ff
 


Red_93

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PDs had NO ECONOMIC ministry from 2004 onwards.
Our two minister were in Justice and Health with a junior in the OPW.

Find some other dog to kick.
The PD's had AN ECONOMIC ministry from 2004 onwards. Tom parlon sat at cabinet as superjunior minister for public works AN ECONOMIC minstry. In any case, most of the damage was done by that stage.
 

hiker

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So am I but I think the country needs massive political and electoral reform to recover. PR-STV has served us very very badly and we need to get rid of it.

I wouldn't have compared the FF/PD performance in government to the worst war in European history but it was you who said it. The Marshall Plan was a much more benign affair that what the IMF will do to us but the circumstances are totally different.

If they can strip out the blatant corruption, kill the quangos (which is only pork for FF hacks), institute strict public service procurement contracting processes and forensic inventory control systems, it will be a good start. There is an enormous job to do there but it requires the elimination of Fianna Fail and sending Harney into the retirement all Irishmen and Irishwomen deserve.
I have said it many times on this site; the next FF Taoiseach has not yet been elected. It will be at least a decade before they see government again and then probebly as a junior partner to FG or Labour.

Harney is at the end of her political career. She will not run and would'nt be re-elected anyway. everyone knows this. She struggled even in the good days.

These things are as good as done.
The structural reform you speak of is the next great challange.

Personally I would like to see the year 2016 as the target year for the introduction of The Second Irish Republic.

It will take us a few years to settle on the specifics but it would be nice to commemorate 1916 with a national rebirth.

It can be done but the work should start now.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Two votes in cabinet. I believe there are about 14 votes around the cabinet table.
Jackie Healy Rae has only one vote and it's not even at cabinet but still he gets his way. The PDs were able to force Haughey to sack his Tanaiste who was contesting the presidency. They had the power and they used it to destroy the country. They were a misbegotten party of egotists propped up by the support of the rich and thick and we'll be paying for their filthy philosophy. In hindsight we would have been better to give Haughey his overall majority in 89. One cheap little huckster could never have wrought the damage to the nation that we are now suffering.
 

Panopticon

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Right, so this is categorically different to blaming FF, who ran Finance for the last 13 years. Don't give me BS about a person who isn't in a party secretly being a member of the party - McCreevy refused to side with Harney when she demanded a reformed regulator in the 1990s.

If you say the PDs were to blame, you are moving onto choice of policy rather than implementation of policy for the basis of blame.

You then have to blame, in addition to FF and PDs, the Fine Gael and Labour parties, as well as 80% of the Irish electorate.
 

Pauli

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I have said it many times on this site; the next FF Taoiseach has not yet been elected. It will be at least a decade before they see government again and then probebly as a junior partner to FG or Labour.

Harney is at the end of her political career. She will not run and would'nt be re-elected anyway. everyone knows this. She struggled even in the good days.

These things are as good as done.
The structural reform you speak of is the next great challange.

Personally I would like to see the year 2016 as the target year for the introduction of The Second Irish Republic.

It will take us a few years to settle on the specifics but it would be nice to commemorate 1916 with a national rebirth.

It can be done but the work should start now.
I agree. I hate the thought of FF surviving in any form because they are parasites and nothing else. But realistically, there are enough remedial idiots in the country who will continue to vote for them in enough numbers to ensure their survival.

2016 would be a good target date to try to aim to have a rebirth of the Republic. (I don't believe it, Johnny, we agree on something. )

I am impressed with the system where I now live. It works for a start and the people have the politicians on a short lead. We need to look around at what works in different places and get the courage to implement the change that is so desperately needed. Because if the last 30 years has proven anything, it's that what we have now is not fit for purpose. Not by a long shot.
 

Xipe Totec

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Nov 12, 2005
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It makes me sad to see this populist bile against the PDs, just when we need them them most!

Regulations and taxes are smothering the private-sector recovery from this government-caused recession.

Meanwhile our skyscraping minimum wage and indulgent human-services are destroying our competitiveness.
Think about it: would you really give 110% to your employer if you knew you would still have a hot meal and a roof over your head if you only gave 109%?

Basically the PDs were the only torch of freedom that this island has seen since the last populist backlash in 1845.

Now the masses are sweltering for cheap socialism... lets hope the IMF coup can rekindle that torch with a napalm strike.
Don't throw it all away!
 
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By 2004 the die had been cast. The deregulation was in place, the banks able to act with impunity, the Financial Regulator neutered, the cowboys well set up. The PDs and their FF ally McCreevey were central to this. Ahern was most to blame, he was happy to abdicate all responsibility and to just lie back and use the bubble taxes to buy elections, but right behind him were the Thatcherite cultists, Harney in particular.

You can try to pretend you weren't there, that you had nothing to do with it, but you were quite happy to take all the credit when the boom was getting boomier. What is they say? Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.. It's funny to watch the PDs now acting like they were merely bystanders....
 
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Right, so this is categorically different to blaming FF, who ran Finance for the last 13 years. Don't give me BS about a person who isn't in a party secretly being a member of the party - McCreevy refused to side with Harney when she demanded a reformed regulator in the 1990s.
Come off it, McCreevey was a PD in all but name, everyone knows it, the only difference being that he stayed when Harney and O'Malley left. Their ideological outlook was the same, laissez-faire, privatization, deregulation, the works. You can not credibly deny that.

If you say the PDs were to blame, you are moving onto choice of policy rather than implementation of policy for the basis of blame.
Wrong, it was a combination of both. The neutering of the regulator, for example, was an ideological choice. The ideology driving government economic policy throughout that era was right-wing and PD-driven, the price of keeping them on board (and there were numerous occasions throughout the period that they could and should have walked - Sheedy, Ahern's money, etc.)

You then have to blame, in addition to FF and PDs, the Fine Gael and Labour parties, as well as 80% of the Irish electorate.
I DO blame the Opposition. They were worse than bloody useless and they were blinded like rabbits in headlights by the apparent 'success' of these lunatic policies. The only TRUE opposition came from outside the Dáil, in the form of dissident economists and the old men at the Tribunals. The Opposition were pathetic.
 

goosebump

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The PDs entered Government in 1987. I take it that few posters here remember what Ireland was like in 1987.
 

goosebump

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what the hell was decent about anything they did - they were an amalgam of spoilt ffers and renegade blueshirts aping the worst excesses of thatchers policies- may they always be remembered as the architects of the day of infamy delivered by ff
Its quite bizarre that you chose to denegrate Thatcherism given the relative state of the UK and Irish economies.

Thatcher freed the UK economy from the shackles or a pampered public sector and corrisve trade union movement.

As a result, the current UK Government is able to make necessary decisions without the country grinding to a halt.

Is that the case here? No. Because we got Bertieism, where instead of tackling vested interests, you give them lots of money and hope they go away.
 

Pauli

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The PDs entered Government in 1987. I take it that few posters here remember what Ireland was like in 1987.
I remember it well, The country was not in great shape but I don't recall the IMF being in the Department of Finance at anytime in 1987. Of course, the PDs weren't in government before 1987.
 
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Its quite bizarre that you chose to denegrate Thatcherism given the relative state of the UK and Irish economies.

Thatcher freed the UK economy from the shackles or a pampered public sector and corrisve trade union movement.

As a result, the current UK Government is able to make necessary decisions without the country grinding to a halt.

Is that the case here? No. Because we got Bertieism, where instead of tackling vested interests, you give them lots of money and hope they go away.
The British are up to their necks in debt, almost as much as ours, for pursuing Blairte/Thatcherite policies. The only reason they're still floating is that they didn't join the Euro and can therefore devalue their currency and remain competitive, which is what in effect they have done. That is the only reason...
 

goosebump

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The British are up to their necks in debt, almost as much as ours, for pursuing Blairte/Thatcherite policies. The only reason they're still floating is that they didn't join the Euro and can therefore devalue their currency and remain competitive, which is what in effect they have done. That is the only reason...
There debt arises from the profligacy of Labour and their binge spending on the public sector.

The ability of Cameron to rectify the situation is based on Thatcher putting the unions and the public utilities in their place.

All of Europe's basket case economies are run by left-wing "if you've got it, spend it" governments.
 
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There debt arises from the profligacy of Labour and their binge spending on the public sector.

The ability of Cameron to rectify the situation is based on Thatcher putting the unions and the public utilities in their place.

All of Europe's basket case economies are run by left-wing "if you've got it, spend it" governments.
Blair and Brown were as Thatcherite as Thatcher herself, if not more so. I absolutely agree with you, they utterly screwed the British economy into the ground (and not just because of public sector pay - look at the utter moral outrage that is PFI). In fact, though, you'll notice that the more social democrat countries do NOT have these problems, it is those that followed the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' model (i.e. right wing deregulation and casino economics) that hit the wall the hardest. And no-one embraced it more than us, thanks to our PD friends (and McCreevey) and the utter short-termist self-serving amorality of Ahern in riding the bubble they created...
 

hmmm

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I'd prefer to take my chances in a clean, efficient, safe private hospital than entering the nirvana that is the union run public hospitals.
 


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