Liever Turks dan Paaps

Volatire

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
13,441
"Better Turk than Papist"​
There is a poorly understood aspect of European history which has possible ramifications for today. Historically, the spread of Islam into Europe was checked by a Catholic alliance, while Protestantism collaborated with, and to some extent even admired, Islam.

The two decisive military defeats for the Ottomans were at Lepanto (1571) and at Vienna (1683). In neither case was there any material christian protestant support for sprawling Catholic alliances attempting to defend Europe. In at least one of these cases, Lutheran and Calvinist elements fought alongside Islamic forces attempting to conquer Europe.

Protestant William I of Orange sent ambassadors to Sultan Suleiman from 1566, seeking cooperation against Spain. John Sigismund Zápolya was a unitarian Transylvanian ruler who collaborated with Sultan Suleiman attacking the atholic Habsburgs in the 1560s and 70s. It is thought that Selim II attacked the Spanish fleet at Tunis in 1574 in response to Dutch entreaties. The loss of Tunis is the reason that North Africa is Muslim rather than Christian today. Protestant Queen Elizabeth refused to assist Spain/Genoa/Venice in defeating Islam, as did the French.

And the Pope has cast his arms abroad for agony and loss,
And called the kings of Christendom for swords about the Cross.
The cold queen of England is looking in the glass;
The shadow of the Valois is yawning at the Mass . . .​

Imre Thököly de Késmárk was a Hungarian Lutheran protestant leader in the late 1600s. His forces fought on the side of Suleiman the Magnificent side at the Battle of Vienna. These were annihilated along with those of the Muslim hoardes when the winged hussars of Catholic King Sobieski of Poland lifted the siege and saved Catholic Vienna and Europe.

It may be thought that collaboration between protestantism and Islam was merely a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. However, there were powerful ideological affinities between Islam and Lutheranism. Of course, Luther and, particularly, Calvin were bitterly critical of Islam because it does not accept the divinity of Jesus. (Then again, they were bitterly critical of everyone else too.) Nevertheless Luther admired the simplicity and devout nature of Islam. The successor of Suleiman the Magnificent, Murad III, wrote to Lutherans in Flanders and Spain in 1574:

As you, for your part, do not worship idols, you have banished the idols and portraits and “bells” from churches, and declared your faith by stating that God Almighty is one and Holy Jesus is His Prophet and Servant, and now, with heart and soul, are seeking and desirous of the true faith; but the faithless one they call Papa does not recognize his Creator as One, ascribing divinity to Holy Jesus (upon him be peace!), and worshiping idols and pictures which he has made with his own hands, thus casting doubt upon the oneness of God and instigating how many servants to that path of error”
Are there ramifications from this short history lesson for today? In the light of history, it must be noteworthy, surely, that it was a Lutheran European leader who opened the floodgates to Islam in Europe.

 


Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,667
Another example was the Protestant Principality of Transylvania, which was carved out of the part of the Kingdom of Hungary occupied by the Turks. The Turks saw that by creating an ethnically Hungarian Protestant state, it would be a useful thorn in the side of the Catholic Austrian Habsburgs who occupied the rest of Hungary and were persecuting its Protestants. (In fact the population of Transylvania was divided between Hungarians/Magyars, "Saxons" (ethnic Germans descended from settlers invited in by Hungarys kings), and Romanians known as "Vlachs". The Orthodox Romanians were not granted religious freedom and lived as indentured servants and serfs. They didnt get a vote in the election for the Prince, even if they were nobles themselves. The colours in their flag interestingly are now the colours of the Romanian flag, despite them representing only the "three nations" of the Magyars, Saxons and the Szekelys (Hungarian speaking peasants of debated - but probably Hungarian - origins).

On the other hand the plan went awry sometimes as the Prince was elected by the local nobles, and some of the princes elected were Catholic, such as Sigismund Bathory. In theory they were supposed to get the choice rubber stamped by the Ottoman Porte (Court) but some refused to go along with this.
 
Last edited:

Morgellons

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
4,911
This would tend to make one side with the poster The Field Marshal in his excoriation of Martin Luther and his lament for the tragic division of Christendom brought on by the reformation five hundred years ago.
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,565
" Turk, Jew or atheist may enter here but not a papist "

Reputedly inscribed on a plaque above the gates of Bandon.
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,565
Catholic response :

" Who wrote this wrote it well

for the same is written above the Gates of Hell "

:D
 

Dearghoul

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
8,846
And yet the Turks supposedly tried to come to the rescue of the Irish during the Famine ......
Oh God don't start that again.

'Were there ships with grain, yes/no, wheres the bill of lading?

Down in a tunnel under the Topkapi palace with some others.

Heres a report in the paper about it.


That doesn't mean they were donating it.

That would be on the bill of lading.

Where..?'
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
32,410

Mitsui2

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
32,380
Are there ramifications from this short history lesson for today? .
Not really, except among the intellectually impoverished right wing second-raters such as your good self who spend their time trawling through online history sites to find stuff they imagine can support the self-aggrandizing twaddle of their glorified w@nkery.

But dream on - everyone needs a dream. And few in this world, whether far left, far right, or in the spaces in between, are prepared to admit that their w@nkery is just w@nkery - however obvious it may be to everyone else.
 

Dearghoul

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
8,846
Still.

T'would make a good Panto

Lepanto

'Don John of Austria,

has set his people free'

Oh no he hasn't!
 

Mitsui2

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
32,380
Still.

T'would make a good Panto

Lepanto

'Don John of Austria,

has set his people free'

Oh no he hasn't!
I can vouch for the fact that it sounded grand in a 1960s CBS schoolroom - downright heroic, in fact, when we all recited it together. As a basis for adult historical opinion, though, I reckon you'd need something a bit more forensic. Unless of course you're a Volatiric, poltroon-type "researcher" with a pretty blunt axe to not so much grind as persuade others is already keen.
 

Dearghoul

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
8,846
I can vouch for the fact that it sounded grand in a 1960s CBS schoolroom - downright heroic, in fact, when we all recited it together. As a basis for adult historical opinion, though, I reckon you'd need something a bit more forensic. Unless of course you're a Volatiric, poltroon-type "researcher" with a pretty blunt axe to not so much grind as persuade others is already keen.
What you mean the Lutherans didn't invite the Muslims into Sweden to turn off the lights in a gesture of solidarity with other iconoclasts?

'Lepanto' the Chesterton job is great and has a right old rattle to it, and the baddies are real baddies as well. You can tell who they are straight away.
 

Karloff

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
6,952
One could also mention the sack of Baltimore in 1631 in which Protestant Dutchmen participated, an Ottoman-Dutch venture. No doubt the raids that devastated the Mediterranean coasts of Catholic Europe for over a century causing the decline of the Catholic South of Europe involved similar mixtures.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,901

Volatire

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
13,441
Not really, except among the intellectually impoverished right wing second-raters such as your good self who spend their time trawling through online history sites to find stuff they imagine can support the self-aggrandizing twaddle of their glorified w@nkery.

But dream on - everyone needs a dream. And few in this world, whether far left, far right, or in the spaces in between, are prepared to admit that their w@nkery is just w@nkery - however obvious it may be to everyone else.
Sad how geriatric lefties flounder around when exposed to new ideas.

Shame you never finished school. Was the free education not available at that time?
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top